[suzi]

I have watched the recent programme about the man who is a twin and felt insecure and resentful about his family, in particular his twin brother. These issues struck a tremendous chord with me as I have suffered for the last 12 or 14 years watching my son 'make himself unlovable' because of how he felt about his brother, me (his mother) and his father. Benjamin's work with the man on the programme showed me more clearly what my son's problems could be and I am going to read Benjamin's book and try to make more sense of the nightmare I have lived through for more than a decade. I think I had understood some of my son's problem but not all of it.
Without getting too boring over the detail my husband and I have watched our son 'self destruct' ( to some extent) with drinking and driving convictions plus some drink and drug use (nothing really heavy like heroin, thank goodness) but culminating in a prison sentence for possession with intent to supply following a dawn raid on our house by a police search team - horrible. The job front has been difficult with no sense of purpose and therefore no lasting job and everything way below his actual ability level. Financially he has been a mess and had to declare bankrupt -only about £5,000, which is way less than many people have but still very difficult to come back from.
On the good side he does have a job now (last 6 months), has found somewhere to live, has not had a credit card for 2 years or a cheque book and mostly manages his money ok now with a bit of help occasionally, only the odd £20 or so, which I feel is not too bad. I guess he wouldn't be a candidate for the Spendaholic programme but these problems did seem to surface when he was about 14 and he stole several thousand pounds from his grandmother's bank account and spent it on buying things for himself and paying for things for others ie buying friends
Psychologically I think things are getting better but I have spent a lot of years feeling I was a poor mother and I have been trying to understand these events. I have to say that I have found it soul destroying to see my son's sadness and lack of happiness. Needles to say he has a lot of treatment from the Doctor for depression but at least has never (as far as I know) expressed any intention of suicide.
I am going to read the book and maybe I can get my son to read the book as well.
I would like to hear from other people who have been in a similar position either feeling like my son must have felt or as I have felt as a concerned and powerless 'spectator' of the drama.
Suzi.

[Helen30]

suzi, on May 5 2008, 03:33 PM, said:

I have watched the recent programme about the man who is a twin and felt insecure and resentful about his family, in particular his twin brother. These issues struck a tremendous chord with me as I have suffered for the last 12 or 14 years watching my son 'make himself unlovable' because of how he felt about his brother, me (his mother) and his father. Benjamin's work with the man on the programme showed me more clearly what my son's problems could be and I am going to read Benjamin's book and try to make more sense of the nightmare I have lived through for more than a decade. I think I had understood some of my son's problem but not all of it.
Without getting too boring over the detail my husband and I have watched our son 'self destruct' ( to some extent) with drinking and driving convictions plus some drink and drug use (nothing really heavy like heroin, thank goodness) but culminating in a prison sentence for possession with intent to supply following a dawn raid on our house by a police search team - horrible. The job front has been difficult with no sense of purpose and therefore no lasting job and everything way below his actual ability level. Financially he has been a mess and had to declare bankrupt -only about £5,000, which is way less than many people have but still very difficult to come back from.
On the good side he does have a job now (last 6 months), has found somewhere to live, has not had a credit card for 2 years or a cheque book and mostly manages his money ok now with a bit of help occasionally, only the odd £20 or so, which I feel is not too bad. I guess he wouldn't be a candidate for the Spendaholic programme but these problems did seem to surface when he was about 14 and he stole several thousand pounds from his grandmother's bank account and spent it on buying things for himself and paying for things for others ie buying friends
Psychologically I think things are getting better but I have spent a lot of years feeling I was a poor mother and I have been trying to understand these events. I have to say that I have found it soul destroying to see my son's sadness and lack of happiness. Needles to say he has a lot of treatment from the Doctor for depression but at least has never (as far as I know) expressed any intention of suicide.
I am going to read the book and maybe I can get my son to read the book as well.
I would like to hear from other people who have been in a similar position either feeling like my son must have felt or as I have felt as a concerned and powerless 'spectator' of the drama.
Suzi.

[Helen30]

Hi Suzi
Just read through your post and wanted to say that, as someone who has experienced problems with my parents, I think it's really nice that you are reading a book to help your son. It shows that you are interested in actively helping him. I won't go into detail but can see that over the years my Mum has been concerned about me and my brother, we aren't into crime ar anything but have suffered from depression due to family issues. It's always been really frustrating to me that my Mum is not prepared to take any action to do anything to help. I think she would prefer to see see it as my/our problem and causing her a problem, heartache etc. but I feel quite isolated and always feel that I'm on my own to try and get help for myself. I would love it if my Mum acknowledged any of my problems and took steps to do anything practical to help or acknowledged her role in things. I hope this makes sense and might give you some sort of encouragement!

[suzi]

Helen30, on Aug 28 2008, 12:25 AM, said:

Hi Suzi
Just read through your post and wanted to say that, as someone who has experienced problems with my parents, I think it's really nice that you are reading a book to help your son. It shows that you are interested in actively helping him. I won't go into detail but can see that over the years my Mum has been concerned about me and my brother, we aren't into crime ar anything but have suffered from depression due to family issues. It's always been really frustrating to me that my Mum is not prepared to take any action to do anything to help. I think she would prefer to see see it as my/our problem and causing her a problem, heartache etc. but I feel quite isolated and always feel that I'm on my own to try and get help for myself. I would love it if my Mum acknowledged any of my problems and took steps to do anything practical to help or acknowledged her role in things. I hope this makes sense and might give you some sort of encouragement!

Dear Helen
Thank you very much for your reply to my post which encouraged me greatly.
Many people find it hard to express what they feel about problems and your mother might be one of them. My husband is one - his family was very 'stiff upper lip' and never really expressed their emotions. Some people are afraid to open a door to discussion as they don't know what will emerge. Discussion could lead to blame/shouting/rows/tears/agression etc so they don't ever go there, preferring to keep it all closed. There are also people who are rather bewildered by those of us who show distress in the form of depression because they can't understand it - they don't feel like that themselves.
I think ultimately each one of us has to take the steps to work things out for ourselves. This does not mean that we can't have help but we do have to take those steps for ourselves. I say this as someone who had lots of problems growing up. I remember searching so hard for answers, reading everything I could and not finding answers immediately though I tried so hard to make sense of everything. Looking back I tried too hard in some ways. It's only now I am a lot older that I can step back a bit better and see the wood for the trees!
What do you think your depression stems from? Perhaps I can give you a perspective on it.
Suzi.

[Helen30]

Hi Suzi
Thanks for your reply, it was touching. Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been having some problems logging in to this site. It's kind of you to ask more about where my 'depression' stems from. Well, to cut a long story short, my Dad died by suicide when I was 6. Also, when I was a bit older I was molested by my step brother who then lived with us for 1 1/2 years. I was too young to say anything and probably didn't because I didn't want to upset my family. To be honest I feel guilty about letting out these 'secrets' but I would be lying if I replied and left part of it out, and I've done a lot of that in the past. There is obviously a lot more detail which I've left out. I guess the main thing would be that neither of these events were really talked about. My Mum I think has been pretty overwhelmed by things (I have two brothers as well). I go through phases when I just feel so sad about things about who I was and for this little girl who was meant to be loved and happy but was abused. I never used to be angry with my Mum when I was younger, but when I started trying to talk to her about it she won't help I feel angry with her. I wish I could just move on and be happy but I don't seem to be able to. I don't like being so angry and it seems to give me a label as being 'difficult' in my family. Whenever I talk to my Mum about it she has always got really angry with me, saying that I blame her for things. So now I've pretty much given up. My brother has always said that I should think more about her feelings and be less selfish. That just makes me more angry! What about me!? I just feel like I never did anything wrong for these things to happen to me. All I would want from my Mum is some compassion I suppose, but I dont think she can get passed her own feelings. I used to just think of my problems as just stemming from the above two 'main events', but I saw a psychotherapist a while ago who made me realise that apart from losing my Dad, my Mum wasn't really there for me, maybe because it was too painful for her. My psychotherapist said that I have a right to be angry. My Mum doesn't really acknowledge any of these things as it's too painful therefore she thinks I am just making a fuss over nothing and 'trying to upset her'. A lot of the people I speak to about it say that I seem really angry and that it would be better for me to let go of the anger. I don't know why but I don't seem to be able to. I really wish my Mum and I had a close relationship and I'm sure she does to, but when I speak to her I just feel angry. I have told her that but I think she feels angry too, maybe because she thinks I don't appreciate what she has done for me. I just can't see how we can have a relationship if she's got no interest in helping me. The only times we have ever spoken about the two events above have been because I've brought up the subject and then I feel as if I'm 'torturing' her emotionally. That's why I said that I would be over the moon if my Mum ever brought a book and took a tiny bit of resonsibility. Then again, I'm worried that I don't have any compassion for her and that maybe I'm going to end up with problems in the long run. I know that we all have to take steps to help ourselves, and I'm trying ...

I was wondering if you have any idea about where your sons issues stem from? Sorry, I know this post has gone on for ages!!

[Helen30]

Feel like I've exposed myself rather a lot with that post... it just came out. Better out than in I suppose.

[suzi]

Helen30, on Sep 20 2008, 09:42 PM, said:

Hi Suzi
Thanks for your reply, it was touching. Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been having some problems logging in to this site. It's kind of you to ask more about where my 'depression' stems from. Well, to cut a long story short, my Dad died by suicide when I was 6. Also, when I was a bit older I was molested by my step brother who then lived with us for 1 1/2 years. I was too young to say anything and probably didn't because I didn't want to upset my family. To be honest I feel guilty about letting out these 'secrets' but I would be lying if I replied and left part of it out, and I've done a lot of that in the past. There is obviously a lot more detail which I've left out. I guess the main thing would be that neither of these events were really talked about. My Mum I think has been pretty overwhelmed by things (I have two brothers as well). I go through phases when I just feel so sad about things about who I was and for this little girl who was meant to be loved and happy but was abused. I never used to be angry with my Mum when I was younger, but when I started trying to talk to her about it she won't help I feel angry with her. I wish I could just move on and be happy but I don't seem to be able to. I don't like being so angry and it seems to give me a label as being 'difficult' in my family. Whenever I talk to my Mum about it she has always got really angry with me, saying that I blame her for things. So now I've pretty much given up. My brother has always said that I should think more about her feelings and be less selfish. That just makes me more angry! What about me!? I just feel like I never did anything wrong for these things to happen to me. All I would want from my Mum is some compassion I suppose, but I dont think she can get passed her own feelings. I used to just think of my problems as just stemming from the above two 'main events', but I saw a psychotherapist a while ago who made me realise that apart from losing my Dad, my Mum wasn't really there for me, maybe because it was too painful for her. My psychotherapist said that I have a right to be angry. My Mum doesn't really acknowledge any of these things as it's too painful therefore she thinks I am just making a fuss over nothing and 'trying to upset her'. A lot of the people I speak to about it say that I seem really angry and that it would be better for me to let go of the anger. I don't know why but I don't seem to be able to. I really wish my Mum and I had a close relationship and I'm sure she does to, but when I speak to her I just feel angry. I have told her that but I think she feels angry too, maybe because she thinks I don't appreciate what she has done for me. I just can't see how we can have a relationship if she's got no interest in helping me. The only times we have ever spoken about the two events above have been because I've brought up the subject and then I feel as if I'm 'torturing' her emotionally. That's why I said that I would be over the moon if my Mum ever brought a book and took a tiny bit of resonsibility. Then again, I'm worried that I don't have any compassion for her and that maybe I'm going to end up with problems in the long run. I know that we all have to take steps to help ourselves, and I'm trying ...

I was wondering if you have any idea about where your sons issues stem from? Sorry, I know this post has gone on for ages!!

[suzi]

Dear Helen
I feel very sorry for that little girl who lost her father at 6 and then had to suffer abuse. My father committed suicide but I was a lot older and understood better. Small children often feel they must have done something to cause the suicide and so feel badly.
Have you thought that you could write some letters about what happened - but not send them. You could write a letter to your father telling him what you feel after he left your life. It would be a way to get rid of lots of feelings and as you would not send the letters you could say what you wanted.
You could also write one to your mother - again not to send but to get rid of the anger. Then you could think about things and when you were ready you could get rid of the letters. I would suggest burning them at a time and place appropriate to you so that you destroy all this negativity and anger.
It might be a way of moving on for you.
Suzi.

[Helen30]

Hi Suzi
Thanks so much for replying. When I read your first sentence I feel really sad, and actually when I think about it sometimes it's as if it all happened to someone else, as if this was not meant to happen to me, I was meant to be fine, and yet it did happen to me and I am this person. I think that's how my Mum feels about it too - she can't understand my 'problems' because as far as she is concerned I am still an 'ok' 5 year old, since she has been in denial about the things that have happened since then.
I think your advice sounds helpful. I have written many letters in the past to both of my parents. However I tend not to throw them away. Perhaps it would help me to let go if I get rid of them. Maybe some sort of burning ritual would help.
Something intersting happened recently. At a therapy group I was asked to say to someone else what I wish that my Mum would say/had said to me. I did this... I found it really helpful. Since then I somehow feel less angry in general and find it a bit easier to get on with people. However after a few days I started to get quite tearful. There is this emptiness. I don't feel strong enough somehow. I'm worried about sinking into a depression, although I feel like somehow I have to work through these feelings. However I always seem to come back to the same sad place and I would like to be happy!
I am aware that this has gone off the subject of your original post a bit. Please let me know if there's anything I could say in relation to that. Thinking about it, when I've acted in a self destructive way in the past, it was when I was scared and unhappy, and felt that trying to do the right thing never seemed to work ... and that whatever I did I always seemed to be cast as the bad one. Also ultimately I didn't feel loved/loveable and so it was as if to say 'well, that's fine, at least if I bring misery on myself I won't be the victim!'. Does that sound terrible? Also, it's a way to make people see that you are unhappy (not a brilliant one). I also think that there is a lot to be said for just improving the way things are at the moment, and not necessarily looking at the past. For example, recently my Mum has got a new partner who seems great. He seems to make her happy. When I went to see her in hospital recently, I started to look down, probably angry about something, and she asked if I was ok. It might not sound like much but I honestly can;t remember another time when she has said that. It made me feel a lot better just to know that she cared.

[suzi]

Helen30, on Oct 4 2008, 03:28 PM, said:

Hi Suzi
Thanks so much for replying. When I read your first sentence I feel really sad, and actually when I think about it sometimes it's as if it all happened to someone else, as if this was not meant to happen to me, I was meant to be fine, and yet it did happen to me and I am this person. I think that's how my Mum feels about it too - she can't understand my 'problems' because as far as she is concerned I am still an 'ok' 5 year old, since she has been in denial about the things that have happened since then.
I think your advice sounds helpful. I have written many letters in the past to both of my parents. However I tend not to throw them away. Perhaps it would help me to let go if I get rid of them. Maybe some sort of burning ritual would help.
Something intersting happened recently. At a therapy group I was asked to say to someone else what I wish that my Mum would say/had said to me. I did this... I found it really helpful. Since then I somehow feel less angry in general and find it a bit easier to get on with people. However after a few days I started to get quite tearful. There is this emptiness. I don't feel strong enough somehow. I'm worried about sinking into a depression, although I feel like somehow I have to work through these feelings. However I always seem to come back to the same sad place and I would like to be happy!
I am aware that this has gone off the subject of your original post a bit. Please let me know if there's anything I could say in relation to that. Thinking about it, when I've acted in a self destructive way in the past, it was when I was scared and unhappy, and felt that trying to do the right thing never seemed to work ... and that whatever I did I always seemed to be cast as the bad one. Also ultimately I didn't feel loved/loveable and so it was as if to say 'well, that's fine, at least if I bring misery on myself I won't be the victim!'. Does that sound terrible? Also, it's a way to make people see that you are unhappy (not a brilliant one). I also think that there is a lot to be said for just improving the way things are at the moment, and not necessarily looking at the past. For example, recently my Mum has got a new partner who seems great. He seems to make her happy. When I went to see her in hospital recently, I started to look down, probably angry about something, and she asked if I was ok. It might not sound like much but I honestly can;t remember another time when she has said that. It made me feel a lot better just to know that she cared.

Dear Helen
How interesting that you say you feel detached from what happened to you. This is a coping mechanism, I think. Have you ever wondered whether in fact your mother had to detach herself from what happened and so wasn't there for you? Parental love can run very deep even though the parent doesn't show it. My husband is a bit like this which is where I think he and our son have had 'run-ins'. My husband comes from this rather unemotional family and he finds it extremely difficult to say he loves someone but he is always there for us all. He very rarely 'does tears'. People like that often do not know how to comfort someone who cries, as I have frequently found.

Reactions to bad events can take many forms. When I went into a big depression over events at work I remember that I could not speak at the Dr's - I could only whisper as I knew that if I actually spoke I would start crying hysterically. I felt that I would never stop and would drown like 'Alice in Wonderland' with her tears. Later I did cry. Crying is a very good release of emotion - it's a way to let out anger as well. Maybe you need to do a bit more of this at times. I think a private cry can be very therapeutic. Then you dry your eyes and go forward again.
Why don't you go over that scene in your head where you say what you would have liked your mother to say to you. You could also try it with your father, too. If it helps with putting the anger in another place instead of inside you then it should surely help you to relate better to others, shouldn't it?
I think we often do self-destructive things when we feel under considerable pressure and yes, I think there's an element of 'look, this is how much I'm hurting' and also 'well, this'll serve them right'. I think it's important not to go down that route as it's very destructive to your self. It's really saying 'look how little I value myself'. Part of coping with life's bad events is remembering what you are worth. Have you ever listed all the things you are good at? These aren't just lists of I play the piano well or I'm an excellent cook. It's more - I try to hard to listen to my firends when they hit bad times or I know that sometimes being a good mother means being tough... You may suprise yourself with this and it may make you value yourself more and so pull you out of these difficult moments.
I hope this is helpful. Don't give up. I sense you are making big progress. Everyone hits dips - you have to acknowledge them and then take a deep breath and move forward again.
Suzi.

[b_beth]

Hello Suzy, Helen

I hope you don't mind me diving in here. I could see so many parallels it's a shock and as someone who went to see Benjamin about two years ago and is coming out of a period of depression and CBT I thought I might be able to offer some words of comfort / direction. Please take what you want and ignore what you don't.....and please don't think I am apportioning blame in anyway. I believe we are all geared up to survive in situations we find ourselves in and however we deal with things we are ultimately driven by this.

(My story if you want to see the parallels more clearly is under the Spendaholics catagory 23/09/07 'Beat one disaster and another one arrives')


Suzi
I see tremendous parallels between my parents and you and your husband. My maternal grandfather died when my mother was 14 and I think she shut down that sadness. I believe she was attracted to a man who was also shut down emotionally. My father was rejected as a child, was very very angry and my mother could very effectively block that out. I would suspect that there are emotions for both you and your husband that you haven't dealt with/ have issues with sadness certainly and maybe anger and maybe praise/ love.

You realise that your husband has a stiff upper lip and has trouble expressing himself. You also realise that he is always there for you.

This is almost a precise description of my dad but without the addition of anger thrown in. As a child I thought everything was due to me, literally the world revolved around me. I think this child centric view is common in childhood. I wonder if your son thought that your husband didn't love him or was indifferent to him. Maybe all this behaviour is a way of trying to make your husband prove that he loves him, force some sort of reaction out of him?

I certainly know a lot of my destructive behaviour was about crying out to be saved and waiting for my dad to prove that he did actually love me.

One thing that has recently come out in my CBT sessions is about how your parents are role models for you. If your husband is shut down and you have learnt to suppress emotions your son may have also learnt these lessons. The problem is you can't shut these emotions down entirely they will always come out in some form of behaviour.


Helen
Likewise you seem to have a passive mother who is very good at blocking things out, ignoring problems rather than acknowledging them.
Given what you have had to survive it is not surprising how you feel. You have done amazingly well to get to this stage. If there was some acknowledgement of this anger from people who seem to have been complicit (your mother) you might be able to deal with it, process it and move on. Its very difficult to deal with it if it is not being acknowledged by your mother.

I believe she feels some guilt and shame given that she reacts so angrily and starts talking about blame when you bring the subject up in any form whatsover. I'm not a psychologist and a session with one may help on this but she doesn't seem to be able to cope with the guilt/ shame and therefore gets into an argument with you about blame so she can project her feelings back on to you. Dump the feelings she can't cope with.

Your brother also seems to be in denial telling you not to make a fuss.

I think Suzi is spot on in saying you have tried to deal with this by disassociating yourself from it. This comes back to my original point about survival.

I am wondering whether you have some of the same problems as me, issues of letting go of the idea that your parent is going to change. She has shown signs that somewhere underneath she does care but you may have to get used to the idea that this is all you are going to get, occasional signs. Instead work on parenting yourself and building close relationships with friends.

I had terrible anger towards my mum after she died which I didn't want to acknowledge because she was widely regarded as mother theresa when she was alive, and she was a pretty good mother. But there was anger related to her blocking out the effect my dad had on me, how cruel and threatening he was. I have dealt with this by having a laminated photo of her in the car. When I need to talk to her, shout at her, reason with her I stick her on the dashboard and either drive or go off somewhere quiet. It has helped me.


I hope this helps and I haven't come across as a patronising sanctamonious cow. I feel I was halfway there with Benjamin's help but I have now dipped and am coming up the other side (People at work just think I've swallowed another self-help book!)

[suzi]

b_beth, on Oct 8 2008, 10:58 PM, said:

Hello Suzy, Helen

I hope you don't mind me diving in here. I could see so many parallels it's a shock and as someone who went to see Benjamin about two years ago and is coming out of a period of depression and CBT I thought I might be able to offer some words of comfort / direction. Please take what you want and ignore what you don't.....and please don't think I am apportioning blame in anyway. I believe we are all geared up to survive in situations we find ourselves in and however we deal with things we are ultimately driven by this.

(My story if you want to see the parallels more clearly is under the Spendaholics catagory 23/09/07 'Beat one disaster and another one arrives')


Suzi
I see tremendous parallels between my parents and you and your husband. My maternal grandfather died when my mother was 14 and I think she shut down that sadness. I believe she was attracted to a man who was also shut down emotionally. My father was rejected as a child, was very very angry and my mother could very effectively block that out. I would suspect that there are emotions for both you and your husband that you haven't dealt with/ have issues with sadness certainly and maybe anger and maybe praise/ love.

You realise that your husband has a stiff upper lip and has trouble expressing himself. You also realise that he is always there for you.

This is almost a precise description of my dad but without the addition of anger thrown in. As a child I thought everything was due to me, literally the world revolved around me. I think this child centric view is common in childhood. I wonder if your son thought that your husband didn't love him or was indifferent to him. Maybe all this behaviour is a way of trying to make your husband prove that he loves him, force some sort of reaction out of him?

I certainly know a lot of my destructive behaviour was about crying out to be saved and waiting for my dad to prove that he did actually love me.

One thing that has recently come out in my CBT sessions is about how your parents are role models for you. If your husband is shut down and you have learnt to suppress emotions your son may have also learnt these lessons. The problem is you can't shut these emotions down entirely they will always come out in some form of behaviour.


Helen
Likewise you seem to have a passive mother who is very good at blocking things out, ignoring problems rather than acknowledging them.
Given what you have had to survive it is not surprising how you feel. You have done amazingly well to get to this stage. If there was some acknowledgement of this anger from people who seem to have been complicit (your mother) you might be able to deal with it, process it and move on. Its very difficult to deal with it if it is not being acknowledged by your mother.

I believe she feels some guilt and shame given that she reacts so angrily and starts talking about blame when you bring the subject up in any form whatsover. I'm not a psychologist and a session with one may help on this but she doesn't seem to be able to cope with the guilt/ shame and therefore gets into an argument with you about blame so she can project her feelings back on to you. Dump the feelings she can't cope with.

Your brother also seems to be in denial telling you not to make a fuss.

I think Suzi is spot on in saying you have tried to deal with this by disassociating yourself from it. This comes back to my original point about survival.

I am wondering whether you have some of the same problems as me, issues of letting go of the idea that your parent is going to change. She has shown signs that somewhere underneath she does care but you may have to get used to the idea that this is all you are going to get, occasional signs. Instead work on parenting yourself and building close relationships with friends.

I had terrible anger towards my mum after she died which I didn't want to acknowledge because she was widely regarded as mother theresa when she was alive, and she was a pretty good mother. But there was anger related to her blocking out the effect my dad had on me, how cruel and threatening he was. I have dealt with this by having a laminated photo of her in the car. When I need to talk to her, shout at her, reason with her I stick her on the dashboard and either drive or go off somewhere quiet. It has helped me.


I hope this helps and I haven't come across as a patronising sanctamonious cow. I feel I was halfway there with Benjamin's help but I have now dipped and am coming up the other side (People at work just think I've swallowed another self-help book!)

Dear Helen and Beth
Yes, Beth, your contribution is very helpful. I am reassured by realising that others have had the same type of problems as me. Being an only child I had no-one to compare notes with really. I was afraid of my Father's anger, too. I squashed down bits of myself which I have only relatively recently re-discovered. However, I think it's important to realise that ALL this makes you the person you are so you have survived. Very important.
Issues with our son have continued to improve. Yes, I think he did have difficulty with his father, convincing himself that he was unloved and he thought his brother received favourable treatment.
I too am interested in Family History and find that my husband's family has quite a history of 'lack of emotion'. Interestingly my husband's grandfather was born in 1875 (!) when parents were frequently distant and it has rather continued down the generations. However, things are better as our son now approaches his father more readily about things. They did a lot together as brothers and father so there is not a lack of interest at all. (Husband even hugs them now when parting and leaving which is quite a step!!). I think my son is realising that people can love you deeply even though they don't keep saying it all the time. His dad has certainly been there for him even when we had to go to Court etc.
Helen,
I think you just keep taking little steps forward for your self. Beth is right, you have to 'parent yourself' and move on from your mother's denial of your hurt. It does sound as though your mother has feelings of guilt and shame over your childhood abuse. I wonder if your brother does too? He wasn't able to protect you either, was he? For some people, a challenge like this is met with absolute denial and anger to turn away the guilt they feel. Then they can provoke a row which leaves you (as an emotional person) feeling devastated but they feel a lot better as they have 'got feelings off their chest'. It took me a long time (and the help of a friend) to see that this is how my husband handles uncomfortable things. Now I take a deep breath and state, 'I'm not going to argue with you,' and walk away. I don't get upset if I do that. He has to look for his row elsewhere!
Work on the relationships you enjoy with friends and family. After all, we can choose our friends but we can't choose our family!
Suzi.

[b_beth]

For some people, a challenge like this is met with absolute denial and anger to turn away the guilt they feel. Then they can provoke a row which leaves you (as an emotional person) feeling devastated but they feel a lot better as they have 'got feelings off their chest'

Thanks for that Suzy. I always knew my dad was trying to drag me into an argument but never really understood why even when the therapist was telling me he couldn't cope with his negative feelings. That's helped me see how it helps him to push it out and dump it on me!

I think the message I would give Helen is that you can't really change what you feel but you can change what you think and what you do. I try to ration how much I see of my dad. When I do see him I can still feel I am tense, I can still feel the stress in me as he tries to drag me into an argument BUT I can leave him as the toddler trying to provoke a reaction and step aside. He tried to get me into a heated debate last time I saw him and said 'Don't you agree?' I replied, 'I'm just thinking how nice it is for the family to be all out together for lunch' and silently gave myself a BIG pat on the back. I still find it stressful but it's getting less so.

[Helen30]

Hi Beth
Thanks for that. It's interesting thinking about it. I think I give my Mum a great deal of power over me. I can't seem to get my head around the idea of changing what I think and do and what that might acheive. Since what I would is to get on better with her and my other family, but I don't know what I can say to make that happen, as it depends on her reaction. I could say certain things, e.g. confront her, tell her how I feel and why, but she would probably end up making me feel guilty and I would feel like a trouble maker. Oh dear, do I sound like a victim? I wish I could just feel ok in myself and not need somthing from her, but I can't seem to help wanting to make her feel guilty by showing her how unhappy I am. Like I'm thinking 'well, you won't talk about it, but I won't let you ignore it'. Like I'm seeing her this weekend and am feeling pretty rubbish at the moment, so I know I'm going to feel guilty about being in a bad mood and pretty low. But then I'll feel angry about feeling guilty with my own Mother and her reinforcing that. I know she will then be angry with me and I will feel ungrateful since she is helping me to move house with her new partner.

Having felt that I was letting go of some of my anger I'm left with a realisation that I still may noy get what I need from her. Maybe it wasn't because I was angry and made myself 'unlovable' but just because she just can't give it. It leaves me feeling pretty vulnerable.

Thanks for your previous words about letting go of the idea that my Mum is ever going to change. I have to say though that I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks and had ended up really very low. Ultimately I can see that it would be really helpful to let go and move forward, but that leaves me quite isolated and I feel like I'm losing all self belief, which is really worrying. Having to accept these things isn't easy as I feel at a loss and it's too depressing not being able to pull out of it.

Also, Suzi, it's really helpful what you said about my Mum dissociating from things to cope and that that might be what I've done too. It's nice for someone else to point that out. It's a new way of looking at things. Cetainly at the moment I feel really disengaged generally. It's like I've given up on trying to work on things, I'm exhausted at working hard but always feeling anger, from me or other people. I also feel like I'm in danger of pushing away those closest to me as I seem to be taking it out on them, resentful that they can't see how difficult things are or don't understand. I had a relationship a while ago which didn't work out, but made me happy for a while, and I just hate going back to loneliness. I've started another degree course recently too, and that's stressing me out! Why can't I just be happy!

[b_beth]

Helen,

I've been digging though the very many complex layers that make up me. Anger has been fairly evident and sadness has also been very close to the surface. I am now dealing with shame, which is the most difficult I have dealt with yet. It brings quite a few memories to the surface to do with malevolence and vindictiveness - its not a very comfortable place to be. Wheras I always previously thought my father punished us because we had behaved badly I have now come to two conclusions;

1. He actually sometimes enjoyed the power of punishing us
2. As he had issues with his mother that he took some pleasure from humiliating me (as I was the only girl)(I have no way of confirming this)

I think from reading your last post maybe shame also features strongly in your releationship with your mother. I don't think you're 'unloveable'. You seem helpful and compassionate from the words you have said to me. I have become quite selective in who I get closer to and who I see less of. I work on the basis of how comfortable I feel around them.

I had a car accident recently and my eldest brother sent me an email enquiring as to how I was. I said remarkably calm and upbeat, but I had been since I started seeing less of my father. He replied that he moved continent to get away from him!!!

The book I am reading at the moment which goes through the family roles and behaviour in shaming families. I am finding it really really useful. In particular the bit on 'Shame based family roles and the dysfunctional family rules' pg 39. Hopefully it should reinforce that there is nothing wrong with you but that your family like you to perform certain roles to reinforce their need for control and silence about what has gone on.

The book is called Healing the shame that binds you by John Bradshaw. I picked it up from Amazon for about £1.50

Hope this helps.

Beth