Iím 23 year old female and frequently attract attention (mostly unwanted!) from men. From my past relationship I have come to the conclusion that I do not want sex before marriage. Not for any religious reasons, just really so I can be sure that my partner likes me for me and is not pandering to this sex-obsessed promiscuity that seems to permeate our culture through the media and its dissemination of ideology.
Iím not anti-sex, or anti-desire, itís just that I value mental appreciation over physical attraction. Attraction is important to some extent certainly ñ but I seem to give less value to looks than other people do (probably from the frustration of being judged on my appearance and never feeling valued for my interior).
I am now consciously aware that I have not been direct enough in the past to make these feelings known or respected. I have also erred in not being clear to men that I only want a friendship and not a relationship (not that the onus should be upon me and the male should have some degree of emotional intelligence but I fear this is not generally the case). Given that I want my next relationship to be (hopefully) my final marriage partner, as I feel ready and settled now to pursue this, I want to be able to filter out (as much as I can ñ I know this is no guarantee) as much of the time-wasters as much as possible. SoÖ
I was wondering (a male perspective would help) how I can make someone aware of these values at the BEGINNING of a friendship in a light but impacting way? Any particular words or phrases I could use?
I donít want to get all serious and seem paranoid or make the mistake of implication but at the same time I need someone to be able to take this on board and treat me like a respectable lady. I really want to find someone with the same values but I don't know where to start.
F
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How do I make values & needs clear? On sex before marriage
#2 Guest_DC_*
Posted 03 July 2005 - 01:11 PM
Hi F,
You must realize that it may take some time to find your mate, so there are sure to be a few time-wasters encountered during the process. The only way you can find someone is to look.
If there are certain activities that you enjoy, looking there might help you find someone with similar interests and values. I know three people now who have found their spouses by using internet matching services. They all seem happy. The service matches people based on interests, values and compatibility.
When you date someone, there's no reason why you can't be upfront about your desire to abstain from a sexual relationship. Something like "I want to be friends first" might work.
Just a word of advice, consider that it may be wise to find out if you are compatible sexually prior to marrying. You may discover not long after marriage that the man whom you thought was a wonderful friend and mate just doesn't do it for you in bed. There's no reason to have sex after just a few dates. But if he is serious about you and hangs in there for weeks and months and seems right in every other way, I think it's a good idea to make sure of the sexual aspect.
Good luck, F, I'm sure the right guy is out there!
You must realize that it may take some time to find your mate, so there are sure to be a few time-wasters encountered during the process. The only way you can find someone is to look.
If there are certain activities that you enjoy, looking there might help you find someone with similar interests and values. I know three people now who have found their spouses by using internet matching services. They all seem happy. The service matches people based on interests, values and compatibility.
When you date someone, there's no reason why you can't be upfront about your desire to abstain from a sexual relationship. Something like "I want to be friends first" might work.
Just a word of advice, consider that it may be wise to find out if you are compatible sexually prior to marrying. You may discover not long after marriage that the man whom you thought was a wonderful friend and mate just doesn't do it for you in bed. There's no reason to have sex after just a few dates. But if he is serious about you and hangs in there for weeks and months and seems right in every other way, I think it's a good idea to make sure of the sexual aspect.
Good luck, F, I'm sure the right guy is out there!
#3
Earth-Born 
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Posted 03 July 2005 - 06:46 PM
The only solution to this problem is to choose a man that demonstrates clearly (through his behaviour rather than words) that he holds the same value. There are men out there who are like that. Even the most well-meaning person would find it difficult to ignore having sex till marriage unless that is what they originally wanted themself. You don't want a man that will not have sex just to please you. He would resent it if he wanted to have sex. It is never a good idea to go into a relationship wanting to change a man. It is not kind: neither to yourself or the man. If he wants to do something, or not do something, he will make that decision either way.
In any case, though I respect your moral approach, I believe that it is a good idea to have sex before marriage because that is the only way that you can know if you and your partner are sexually compatible. It is not unevolved to enjoy some of the closest, creative romantic moments whilst making love/children, and therefore it is important to prevent a marriage that doesn't work because the partners cannot express themselves sexually. That is my advice. It is more realistic than waiting till marriage (unless you have some sexual experience with the person before marriage of course, and can at least rule out him having a non-existant penis). Call it superficial but you cannot run away from the nature of being a person. In any case, it is no crime to be sexual.
In any case, though I respect your moral approach, I believe that it is a good idea to have sex before marriage because that is the only way that you can know if you and your partner are sexually compatible. It is not unevolved to enjoy some of the closest, creative romantic moments whilst making love/children, and therefore it is important to prevent a marriage that doesn't work because the partners cannot express themselves sexually. That is my advice. It is more realistic than waiting till marriage (unless you have some sexual experience with the person before marriage of course, and can at least rule out him having a non-existant penis). Call it superficial but you cannot run away from the nature of being a person. In any case, it is no crime to be sexual.
#4
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Posted 05 July 2005 - 01:39 AM
Thank you for both of your replies.
I had hoped that I would find like-minded people through my hobbies (which I do for their own sake and not for dating purposes) but this is just not the case. I think itís more emotional intelligence I am after and certain values which probably belong to a rare breed. I find many religious types with overlapping values but, given that I am not religious, our core motivations are quite different. I am generally quite cynical about internet dating but I am open minded enough to have a look at any recommended sites if DC is allowed to tell me the names of them here.
If I am acting through fear, I think I am scared of stating ìI just want to be friendsî and then having my boundaries trampled upon in a moment of uncontrollable lustfulness from the other person ñ which I feel I should not ever be responsible for. I have fear in getting attached to a person, putting my emotional energy into the relationship, only to feel betrayed by my wishes being disrespected. Itís like trusting someone with my purse and asking them not to spend my money, but then they go ahead and spend it anyway. Down to respect and boundaries I guess.
I really appreciate the advice from both of you regarding sexual compatibility before marriage and this is something I have thought about at great length. Firstly, I donít think that sex is so important to me that the absence or poor quality of such would ruin my marriage. I believe that sex is a really great way of showing love and affection but there are other ways of showing these feelings and there are always ways around the logistical problems. However, as I have never been in a ìcanít haveî position I could not say for certain this would not affect me - I may go nuts, feel rejected, who knows? So perhaps an imposed indefinite abstinence in the relationship would suffice to show me of their seriousness and values. I donít want someone just proposing to me just so they can ìget laidî, nor do I want a guy who has problems with intimacy. How to achieve this is another matter ñ I feel that so many guys my own age seem to value grossly different things to me and itís hardly light conversation or appropriate (I think) to start grilling them on their attitudes to sex on a first date (not that I'd know, I haven't been on a date for years!). Still, I suppose itís worth knowing the answers before any relationship forms, then itís a case of finding out their beliefs without making it obvious so they canít lie, or do it in such a way it doesnít seem like a Spanish inquisition. Any thoughts?
F
I had hoped that I would find like-minded people through my hobbies (which I do for their own sake and not for dating purposes) but this is just not the case. I think itís more emotional intelligence I am after and certain values which probably belong to a rare breed. I find many religious types with overlapping values but, given that I am not religious, our core motivations are quite different. I am generally quite cynical about internet dating but I am open minded enough to have a look at any recommended sites if DC is allowed to tell me the names of them here.
If I am acting through fear, I think I am scared of stating ìI just want to be friendsî and then having my boundaries trampled upon in a moment of uncontrollable lustfulness from the other person ñ which I feel I should not ever be responsible for. I have fear in getting attached to a person, putting my emotional energy into the relationship, only to feel betrayed by my wishes being disrespected. Itís like trusting someone with my purse and asking them not to spend my money, but then they go ahead and spend it anyway. Down to respect and boundaries I guess.
I really appreciate the advice from both of you regarding sexual compatibility before marriage and this is something I have thought about at great length. Firstly, I donít think that sex is so important to me that the absence or poor quality of such would ruin my marriage. I believe that sex is a really great way of showing love and affection but there are other ways of showing these feelings and there are always ways around the logistical problems. However, as I have never been in a ìcanít haveî position I could not say for certain this would not affect me - I may go nuts, feel rejected, who knows? So perhaps an imposed indefinite abstinence in the relationship would suffice to show me of their seriousness and values. I donít want someone just proposing to me just so they can ìget laidî, nor do I want a guy who has problems with intimacy. How to achieve this is another matter ñ I feel that so many guys my own age seem to value grossly different things to me and itís hardly light conversation or appropriate (I think) to start grilling them on their attitudes to sex on a first date (not that I'd know, I haven't been on a date for years!). Still, I suppose itís worth knowing the answers before any relationship forms, then itís a case of finding out their beliefs without making it obvious so they canít lie, or do it in such a way it doesnít seem like a Spanish inquisition. Any thoughts?
F
#5
Earth-Born
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Posted 07 July 2005 - 06:52 PM
You took my comments pretty well! It always surprises me...
I don't really know what you are worrying about. If a man has uncontrollable lust, feels the urge and does it without your consent then you are refering to rape. I have some experience with men only wanting me for one thing. That used to happen when I was (more attractive!) needed some acceptance and wanted closeness myself. Men tend to pick up on girls that are looking for someone to give them attention, and though I am not saying you are necessarily like this, either you are very good-looking or giving off the vibes that say "I'm an easy lay". Girls that have an air of self-respect don't have their ground trampled on so much as less-assertive ones, even though they will be ogled as men are often like that. And even so, in my case men at least tried persistently to persuade me (sad gits) and I only has one man try to physically help himself without my permission.
You would be surprised. There are men out there with self control. I don't know how to find them but my boyfriend is Spanish and he seems to have a very traditional attitude. So I would recommend perhaps going with someone with a conscious moral code, religious or otherwise.
By the way, once you have found the right person whether you are/aren't married, as a woman you have to master the art of letting a man take control of you in bed. That is only enjoyable/successful when there is a great amount of trust and love, and when it is done is the most beautiful thing that words can't discribe to know that a good man DOES love a woman and care as much about her as himself. That's more than affection or lust and should be considered a great opportunity to bring together a good relationship. Never go with a man that only cares about his own enjoyment. It'll generally be a pretty bad experience in the bedroom, leaving you feeling like you have been used or disrespected. The right kinda guy isn't out to protect, not disrespect. Oh, I've coined a phrase...
I don't really know what you are worrying about. If a man has uncontrollable lust, feels the urge and does it without your consent then you are refering to rape. I have some experience with men only wanting me for one thing. That used to happen when I was (more attractive!) needed some acceptance and wanted closeness myself. Men tend to pick up on girls that are looking for someone to give them attention, and though I am not saying you are necessarily like this, either you are very good-looking or giving off the vibes that say "I'm an easy lay". Girls that have an air of self-respect don't have their ground trampled on so much as less-assertive ones, even though they will be ogled as men are often like that. And even so, in my case men at least tried persistently to persuade me (sad gits) and I only has one man try to physically help himself without my permission.
You would be surprised. There are men out there with self control. I don't know how to find them but my boyfriend is Spanish and he seems to have a very traditional attitude. So I would recommend perhaps going with someone with a conscious moral code, religious or otherwise.
By the way, once you have found the right person whether you are/aren't married, as a woman you have to master the art of letting a man take control of you in bed. That is only enjoyable/successful when there is a great amount of trust and love, and when it is done is the most beautiful thing that words can't discribe to know that a good man DOES love a woman and care as much about her as himself. That's more than affection or lust and should be considered a great opportunity to bring together a good relationship. Never go with a man that only cares about his own enjoyment. It'll generally be a pretty bad experience in the bedroom, leaving you feeling like you have been used or disrespected. The right kinda guy isn't out to protect, not disrespect. Oh, I've coined a phrase...
#6
Earth-Born
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Posted 07 July 2005 - 06:55 PM
Let me try and write that again:
The right kind of man is out to PROTECT, not disrespect!!! Hurrah!!
The right kind of man is out to PROTECT, not disrespect!!! Hurrah!!
#7 Guest_Guest_*
Posted 30 July 2005 - 11:26 PM
I must endorse the views of fellow contributors, in fact I would go further. I think it is almost naive to consign sex to 'after marriage'. And if you cant recognise emotional intelligence from conversation and shared interests, you wont recognise it in a man who may be a wee timid fellow, grateful that he wont have to disclose his sexual naivety until his wedding day, and thus happy to oblige your stereotyping.
If we are talking about making love as opposed to sex, and there is a world of difference, ensure that you and any partner you meet are compatible. Differences in this department are fundamental to marriage, and if you meet someone you love, the pain of not being able to enjoy that sensation through the intensity that love making can provide can be soul destroying and destructive of your partnership.
And if you arent yet well versed in the delights of intimacy, ask yourself whether you have any deep seated reasons for holding the views that you have. If you were religious I would fully understand your reservations, but you say you are not. Your body can be a wonderful source of pleasure which neednt be sordid or cheap, even if shared with a partner who you do not foresee as a future partner, so long as you show one another mutual respect. Think of sex more like a gastronomic meal, a basic human necessity that can be enjoyed at a host of different levels without the conclusion that you must be cheapening yourself through indulgence.
If sex doesnt work in relationships, it WILL reveal itself in time. Find out your needs, and your partner's before you have children, and an apparently contented existence. Having sex with someone after several months is ample time to gauge emotional intelligence and sincerity, and if a man who is not religious isnt desperate by then to consummate his heart felt affection for you, I' would have real misgivings, rather than the other way around.
Sex is as natural as breathing. Would you hold your breath for as long as you could for any good reason other than being in a freshly manured field? I didnt think so. Now apply that reasoning to another basic normal human action.
Oh and if you are fixed on your values and not open to second thoughts, the way to tell someone is unambiguously and early on, nothing more, nothing less.
If we are talking about making love as opposed to sex, and there is a world of difference, ensure that you and any partner you meet are compatible. Differences in this department are fundamental to marriage, and if you meet someone you love, the pain of not being able to enjoy that sensation through the intensity that love making can provide can be soul destroying and destructive of your partnership.
And if you arent yet well versed in the delights of intimacy, ask yourself whether you have any deep seated reasons for holding the views that you have. If you were religious I would fully understand your reservations, but you say you are not. Your body can be a wonderful source of pleasure which neednt be sordid or cheap, even if shared with a partner who you do not foresee as a future partner, so long as you show one another mutual respect. Think of sex more like a gastronomic meal, a basic human necessity that can be enjoyed at a host of different levels without the conclusion that you must be cheapening yourself through indulgence.
If sex doesnt work in relationships, it WILL reveal itself in time. Find out your needs, and your partner's before you have children, and an apparently contented existence. Having sex with someone after several months is ample time to gauge emotional intelligence and sincerity, and if a man who is not religious isnt desperate by then to consummate his heart felt affection for you, I' would have real misgivings, rather than the other way around.
Sex is as natural as breathing. Would you hold your breath for as long as you could for any good reason other than being in a freshly manured field? I didnt think so. Now apply that reasoning to another basic normal human action.
Oh and if you are fixed on your values and not open to second thoughts, the way to tell someone is unambiguously and early on, nothing more, nothing less.
#8 Guest_CJ_*
Posted 03 August 2005 - 12:40 PM
Hi,
I'm afraid I feel I must disagree entirely with that last post. Respectfully, I think you are making some pretty unjustified claims about sex, because they fit with your own particular philosophy. You described sex as both a ìwonderful source of pleasureî and a ìbasic human necessityî, but I really donít see how it can be both. Food, water and shelter are the basic human necessities, whereas chocolate ice cream, TV shows and, I believe, sex are firmly in the category of ëindulgencesí. I understand why you would firmly assert that sex is an integral part of a conventional romantic relationship, but you canít assume that such a relationship is the definitive form of happiness. Most coupleís sex lives decline in excitement and intensity as, say, a marriage progress, so does that necessarily mean that they are becoming less happy? Must they spice things up and resort to kinkier activities to keep the relationship together? Or perhaps they are just flogging a dead horse that is self-indulgent desire, when in fact a different kind of love based upon a bond of personalities would sustain without the need to try and desperately prologue a waning sex life.
Now most people will probably assume that they have experienced such a close personality bond with a partner, and that sex merely brought it to another level, however, I would ask how can you be sure that you actually have experienced exactly what Flaneur seems to be yearning for? After all, it is impossible to conceptualise what you have never experienced, and so our brains will merely relate such a description to the closest match from our own life experiences. But whoís to say itís the same thing, or that we have the slightest conception of what they are describing? Whoís to say someone else is not describing something on a whole other level from the one that we are currently thinking on?
How this relates to the original point is that I believe it is a mistake to directly compare what Flaneur is describing to our own experiences of romantic relationships. This is because when you have a sexual attraction to someone, then time spent in their company can feel like bliss; they can feel like your sole-mate and that you will always enjoy spending time with them, but I think this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the kind of connection that she was describing. What I am referring to is the circumstance where the mere sharing of thoughts, feelings and ideas with another are sufficient to provide unlimited hours of enthralling conversation; where cruxís like TV or music are not required; where conversational pauses are few; and where discussion rarely ventures into the realm of the impersonal and uninsightful, i.e. clothes, make up, celebrities, gossip etc. Such a thing does exist and if you have experienced it then you are lucky but you are also in a minority. However, to taste such a fulfilment makes sex seem like a paltry consolation, and certainly not a critical element in the maintenance of this kind of bond.
In stark contrast, the thrill of the romantic connection is a relatively fleeting sensation. It is a blissful high that comes not from bonding with the ësoulí with whom you are sharing a bed, but from the vain gratification that comes from being around someone who adores you. Its like a drug; we all desperately want to worshipped and cherished in such an intense way because on some fundamental level we believe we deserve it, because ultimately we all adore ourselves. Little else feels better than a conformation that this self-love is well founded than by its reinforcement from the ëloveí of another person. However, Iím afraid this is an unjustified love because as human being we are all riddled with selfishness and poverty, and few individuals are in fact ëgoodí enough people to merit such unrestricted reverence. And in time, as we start to identify aspects of these latent deficiency in our partners, we slowly start to lose respect for their opinions as we realise that they are in fact human and not divine. Their affections then lose that initial thrill, we become accustomed to them in all ways (including physically) and the sex inevitable declines in quality.
Tragic perhaps, but only depressing if you are (1) seeking utter fulfilment in another person and (2) making sex a critical component of that relationship. A physical copulation may well bring about an intense feeling of emotional closeness with another, but I believe that souls can only be brought together by unfettered mutual comprehension (i.e. in flowing communication like conversation) because after all, a soul is not a physical thing and so cannot ëbondí through physical means. Mutual emotional intimacy brought about by physical stimulation is a momentary phenomenon, and it is only the more ëfriend-likeí connections formed between couples that will stand the test of time.
Therefore, if I could summarise all of this into two golden rules they would be as follows:
(1) Sex is unimportant and perhaps ultimately antithetical to an insightful relationship.
(2) ALL non-insightful relationships will inevitably decline and disintegrate in the long term.
I'm afraid I feel I must disagree entirely with that last post. Respectfully, I think you are making some pretty unjustified claims about sex, because they fit with your own particular philosophy. You described sex as both a ìwonderful source of pleasureî and a ìbasic human necessityî, but I really donít see how it can be both. Food, water and shelter are the basic human necessities, whereas chocolate ice cream, TV shows and, I believe, sex are firmly in the category of ëindulgencesí. I understand why you would firmly assert that sex is an integral part of a conventional romantic relationship, but you canít assume that such a relationship is the definitive form of happiness. Most coupleís sex lives decline in excitement and intensity as, say, a marriage progress, so does that necessarily mean that they are becoming less happy? Must they spice things up and resort to kinkier activities to keep the relationship together? Or perhaps they are just flogging a dead horse that is self-indulgent desire, when in fact a different kind of love based upon a bond of personalities would sustain without the need to try and desperately prologue a waning sex life.
Now most people will probably assume that they have experienced such a close personality bond with a partner, and that sex merely brought it to another level, however, I would ask how can you be sure that you actually have experienced exactly what Flaneur seems to be yearning for? After all, it is impossible to conceptualise what you have never experienced, and so our brains will merely relate such a description to the closest match from our own life experiences. But whoís to say itís the same thing, or that we have the slightest conception of what they are describing? Whoís to say someone else is not describing something on a whole other level from the one that we are currently thinking on?
How this relates to the original point is that I believe it is a mistake to directly compare what Flaneur is describing to our own experiences of romantic relationships. This is because when you have a sexual attraction to someone, then time spent in their company can feel like bliss; they can feel like your sole-mate and that you will always enjoy spending time with them, but I think this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the kind of connection that she was describing. What I am referring to is the circumstance where the mere sharing of thoughts, feelings and ideas with another are sufficient to provide unlimited hours of enthralling conversation; where cruxís like TV or music are not required; where conversational pauses are few; and where discussion rarely ventures into the realm of the impersonal and uninsightful, i.e. clothes, make up, celebrities, gossip etc. Such a thing does exist and if you have experienced it then you are lucky but you are also in a minority. However, to taste such a fulfilment makes sex seem like a paltry consolation, and certainly not a critical element in the maintenance of this kind of bond.
In stark contrast, the thrill of the romantic connection is a relatively fleeting sensation. It is a blissful high that comes not from bonding with the ësoulí with whom you are sharing a bed, but from the vain gratification that comes from being around someone who adores you. Its like a drug; we all desperately want to worshipped and cherished in such an intense way because on some fundamental level we believe we deserve it, because ultimately we all adore ourselves. Little else feels better than a conformation that this self-love is well founded than by its reinforcement from the ëloveí of another person. However, Iím afraid this is an unjustified love because as human being we are all riddled with selfishness and poverty, and few individuals are in fact ëgoodí enough people to merit such unrestricted reverence. And in time, as we start to identify aspects of these latent deficiency in our partners, we slowly start to lose respect for their opinions as we realise that they are in fact human and not divine. Their affections then lose that initial thrill, we become accustomed to them in all ways (including physically) and the sex inevitable declines in quality.
Tragic perhaps, but only depressing if you are (1) seeking utter fulfilment in another person and (2) making sex a critical component of that relationship. A physical copulation may well bring about an intense feeling of emotional closeness with another, but I believe that souls can only be brought together by unfettered mutual comprehension (i.e. in flowing communication like conversation) because after all, a soul is not a physical thing and so cannot ëbondí through physical means. Mutual emotional intimacy brought about by physical stimulation is a momentary phenomenon, and it is only the more ëfriend-likeí connections formed between couples that will stand the test of time.
Therefore, if I could summarise all of this into two golden rules they would be as follows:
(1) Sex is unimportant and perhaps ultimately antithetical to an insightful relationship.
(2) ALL non-insightful relationships will inevitably decline and disintegrate in the long term.
#9 Guest_DC_*
Posted 05 August 2005 - 12:30 PM
While I'm not sure how helpful this discussion is to Flaneur (who seems interested in sex, but not while dating) it seems worthwhile to note that sex is actually a necessity of life.
All animals that reproduce sexually must copulate in order to pass their genes on. Because it is a basic need, sexual desire is part of the human psyche. So many of humanity's problems seem to stem from the perversion of this basic necessity. This may be due to the pleasurable nature of sexual activity. Sex feels good for a reason; so we will engage in it repeatedly and thereby increase the chances of reproducing ourselves.
Let's not fool ourselves that a good marital relationship does not necessarily have to involve satisfying sex. The most intellectual of friendships can be only that without the spark of romance to create a marriage. It may be surprising for some to learn that sex after many years with the same partner can get ever better over time. If considered a physical expression of love, it is practically impossible for a sexual relationship to become stale. The relationship becomes stale for other reasons, then the sex wanes.
There is tremendous pressure to engage in sex early in a relationship and I think Flaneur is wise to understand that it is important to abstain from intercourse until she is well acquainted with a man. For many males, the conquest is all, once the target has been achieved, interest wanes. While there certainly are males so stubborn and egotistical that they will hang on for months in the hope of achieving a conquest, most of the ones who are in it only for the sex will quickly tire of waiting and move on to easier pickings.
It is true that everyone's experiences are unique, but that is no reason to reject the wisdom gained through experience. Time and again, couples involved in a long-term relationship will say their partner is their best friend. This is the secret to a happy marriage. Best friends try to meet each other's needs in all ways, including sexually.
All animals that reproduce sexually must copulate in order to pass their genes on. Because it is a basic need, sexual desire is part of the human psyche. So many of humanity's problems seem to stem from the perversion of this basic necessity. This may be due to the pleasurable nature of sexual activity. Sex feels good for a reason; so we will engage in it repeatedly and thereby increase the chances of reproducing ourselves.
Let's not fool ourselves that a good marital relationship does not necessarily have to involve satisfying sex. The most intellectual of friendships can be only that without the spark of romance to create a marriage. It may be surprising for some to learn that sex after many years with the same partner can get ever better over time. If considered a physical expression of love, it is practically impossible for a sexual relationship to become stale. The relationship becomes stale for other reasons, then the sex wanes.
There is tremendous pressure to engage in sex early in a relationship and I think Flaneur is wise to understand that it is important to abstain from intercourse until she is well acquainted with a man. For many males, the conquest is all, once the target has been achieved, interest wanes. While there certainly are males so stubborn and egotistical that they will hang on for months in the hope of achieving a conquest, most of the ones who are in it only for the sex will quickly tire of waiting and move on to easier pickings.
It is true that everyone's experiences are unique, but that is no reason to reject the wisdom gained through experience. Time and again, couples involved in a long-term relationship will say their partner is their best friend. This is the secret to a happy marriage. Best friends try to meet each other's needs in all ways, including sexually.
#10 Guest_Guest_*
Posted 07 August 2005 - 05:28 PM
CJ
Whilst I respect your viewpoint, and all that you say, I reply by simply making the following observations. I qualified my comments by distinguishing 'making love' from sex, and I am familiar with both forms of expression, though I came to this awareness late in life. Maybe that is why I am bothering to add to this thread
My post was based on the premise that Flaneur may be pre-judging the experience. Shared with a loving partner, and of course I can only impart my own experiences, I firmly believe that making love is one of life's richest gifts.
I also believe that predetermined views on the subject are likely to deprive many of the openness to experience that make the awareness possible in the first place. It is a little like the reticence that some people have for unfamiliar food
'Mmm not sure I really want to try that'.
Our culture, many of our inherited attitudes including those about body parts, and also early adverse experiences can all combine to ward off the anxious from learning what is there to be savoured, without guilt or embarrassment.
If Flaneur truly knows herself, and I find it difficult to believe that she or for that matter any 23 year old can do so, fine, than your comments and her outlook are justified. If not, mine may have some relevance to her predicament. She should ensure that she is fully equipped to make the choice that is right for her, and that may require greater circumspection than she has realised. I would say the same to my own children.
Sincerely.
Whilst I respect your viewpoint, and all that you say, I reply by simply making the following observations. I qualified my comments by distinguishing 'making love' from sex, and I am familiar with both forms of expression, though I came to this awareness late in life. Maybe that is why I am bothering to add to this thread
My post was based on the premise that Flaneur may be pre-judging the experience. Shared with a loving partner, and of course I can only impart my own experiences, I firmly believe that making love is one of life's richest gifts.
I also believe that predetermined views on the subject are likely to deprive many of the openness to experience that make the awareness possible in the first place. It is a little like the reticence that some people have for unfamiliar food
'Mmm not sure I really want to try that'.
Our culture, many of our inherited attitudes including those about body parts, and also early adverse experiences can all combine to ward off the anxious from learning what is there to be savoured, without guilt or embarrassment.
If Flaneur truly knows herself, and I find it difficult to believe that she or for that matter any 23 year old can do so, fine, than your comments and her outlook are justified. If not, mine may have some relevance to her predicament. She should ensure that she is fully equipped to make the choice that is right for her, and that may require greater circumspection than she has realised. I would say the same to my own children.
Sincerely.
#11
Fl‚neur
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Posted 10 August 2005 - 10:04 PM
I asked quite a simple question: How to make my needs and values clear about sex before marriage in a light-hearted way and I feel like I have just received a bashing about my own wishes and values.
I am already aware of making this clear early on in an unambiguous way. I was hoping for practical advice and phrases, not to have my own realizations merely parroted or repeated.
I also feel a little patronized in regard to the ësexí ëmaking loveí distinction. I am already fully aware of this ñ shock horror at 23, heaven forbid. Iíve had very healthy passionate relationships and also deeper meaningful relationships too. I am inward looking enough to have realized this early in life as opposed to later on, I think that deserves some recognition unless anyoneís superiority complex gets in the way. If someone wants to think I am not capable of knowing myself then go ahead ñ if they wish to judge me on such a short post then thatís their own prerogative. Though I would advise you to base your argument upon better judged premises in the future or ìabstainî from judgments until further investigation has been followed.
I am very aware of the ìwee timid fellowsî as described, or rather stereotyped (Iím not the only one with narrow judgments it seems) and Iím quick to pick up on this. What I would agree with is that several months could also be a good time limit for abstinence and I could be flexible enough to consider this instead of a ìstricterî marriage cut-off. I agree that if ìa man who is not religious isnt desperate by then to consummate his heart felt affection for you, I' would have real misgivings, rather than the other way around.î Sure Iíd probably be worried if he was apathetic ñ but what I crave is to be respected for this and not ìharassedî as I so frequently feel by partners.
I agree sex is natural, but this is justification for what exactly? And yes, sex, sorry ìmaking loveî can be a wonderful way of two people showing love for one another. I know this already.
If you must know, what I am really wanting is a sustainable intense emotional bond which I feel is a mental activity rather than a physical one ñ from my own learning experience of course. If this is naive then someone please tell me what is attainable beyond this? Sure, maybe abstinence isnít the whole answer, but I believe it will cut out a lot of the time-wasters in the meantime. If you have sure-fire method of achieving this intense enduring emotional bond I speak of, well then, please let me know. No, perhaps you should write the first book on it ñ youíd make millions.
F
I am already aware of making this clear early on in an unambiguous way. I was hoping for practical advice and phrases, not to have my own realizations merely parroted or repeated.
I also feel a little patronized in regard to the ësexí ëmaking loveí distinction. I am already fully aware of this ñ shock horror at 23, heaven forbid. Iíve had very healthy passionate relationships and also deeper meaningful relationships too. I am inward looking enough to have realized this early in life as opposed to later on, I think that deserves some recognition unless anyoneís superiority complex gets in the way. If someone wants to think I am not capable of knowing myself then go ahead ñ if they wish to judge me on such a short post then thatís their own prerogative. Though I would advise you to base your argument upon better judged premises in the future or ìabstainî from judgments until further investigation has been followed.
I am very aware of the ìwee timid fellowsî as described, or rather stereotyped (Iím not the only one with narrow judgments it seems) and Iím quick to pick up on this. What I would agree with is that several months could also be a good time limit for abstinence and I could be flexible enough to consider this instead of a ìstricterî marriage cut-off. I agree that if ìa man who is not religious isnt desperate by then to consummate his heart felt affection for you, I' would have real misgivings, rather than the other way around.î Sure Iíd probably be worried if he was apathetic ñ but what I crave is to be respected for this and not ìharassedî as I so frequently feel by partners.
I agree sex is natural, but this is justification for what exactly? And yes, sex, sorry ìmaking loveî can be a wonderful way of two people showing love for one another. I know this already.
If you must know, what I am really wanting is a sustainable intense emotional bond which I feel is a mental activity rather than a physical one ñ from my own learning experience of course. If this is naive then someone please tell me what is attainable beyond this? Sure, maybe abstinence isnít the whole answer, but I believe it will cut out a lot of the time-wasters in the meantime. If you have sure-fire method of achieving this intense enduring emotional bond I speak of, well then, please let me know. No, perhaps you should write the first book on it ñ youíd make millions.
F
#12 Guest_DC_*
Posted 11 August 2005 - 11:24 AM
Hi F,
I think when you meet the right one it will just click and it won't take long for you to know. It may be he has just not come along yet and all the dating in between is something you have to go through to find him. I hope he is out there for you.
You asked about internet dating and I would be loathe to recommend any site but if you run a search many will come up. There are ones that try to match personalities and those were successful for the people I know. My brother met his wife that way and I had given up on him ever finding anyone, he was so hard to please. She doesn't take his foolishness seriously and that is the secret for them.
I've been trying to think of other phrases but if saying 'I want to be friends first' doesn't work for you, probably nothing else will. Bluntness would seem the best policy, especially for the pushy types. If the opportunity arises over dinner conversation, something like: "I think the emphasis on sex is shallow. I'm looking for a deeper relationship," would be clear but not forbidding.
I doubt there is a secret to achieving the sort of relationship you're after. It seems more like luck to me, or some would say preordained. With so many men out there how can a girl hope to find the perfect fit? She just has to keep wading through all the muck and not give up. As I said in the last post, the only real secret I know, because it works for me, is to feel that your partner is your very best friend. That sort of love helps the relationship last through all the terrible times.
Please don't be too hard on the people who reply to your post. Most of them are here because they have problems of their own and they are only trying to help when they write to you. It's almost inevitable that some of their problems are going to leak into the advice they offer.
Good luck Flaneur and happy hunting! DC
I think when you meet the right one it will just click and it won't take long for you to know. It may be he has just not come along yet and all the dating in between is something you have to go through to find him. I hope he is out there for you.
You asked about internet dating and I would be loathe to recommend any site but if you run a search many will come up. There are ones that try to match personalities and those were successful for the people I know. My brother met his wife that way and I had given up on him ever finding anyone, he was so hard to please. She doesn't take his foolishness seriously and that is the secret for them.
I've been trying to think of other phrases but if saying 'I want to be friends first' doesn't work for you, probably nothing else will. Bluntness would seem the best policy, especially for the pushy types. If the opportunity arises over dinner conversation, something like: "I think the emphasis on sex is shallow. I'm looking for a deeper relationship," would be clear but not forbidding.
I doubt there is a secret to achieving the sort of relationship you're after. It seems more like luck to me, or some would say preordained. With so many men out there how can a girl hope to find the perfect fit? She just has to keep wading through all the muck and not give up. As I said in the last post, the only real secret I know, because it works for me, is to feel that your partner is your very best friend. That sort of love helps the relationship last through all the terrible times.
Please don't be too hard on the people who reply to your post. Most of them are here because they have problems of their own and they are only trying to help when they write to you. It's almost inevitable that some of their problems are going to leak into the advice they offer.
Good luck Flaneur and happy hunting! DC
#13 Guest_Guest_*
Posted 11 August 2005 - 09:21 PM
Flaneur,
Whether my response was borne of my own problems in this arena or not, and I have no difficulty in accepting that this has been a fraught area for me, it was given with sincerity. There is no axe to grind. We are all anonymous here; I dont puff myself up with any sense of self importance that I have a view to impart. I have a valid experience, no more no less. I am nearly twice your age and my married life has been complicated by the fact that notwithstanding my wife's supposed self awareness vis a vis intimacy, sex has always been a source of separation rather than unification. I am probably little less inward looking than you, and eschew the tripe that another poster described as being concurrent with today's moral values.
A difference between you and me might however be that I am constantly on the look out to learn about myself, and do not make assumptions about what the future holds; that is my experience of life. The assumptions and set in stone views of my teens and twenty somethings have been the source of most of my angst. Keeping an open mind is the lesson I learnt. It may be that you are absolutely right about yourself, and that you are equipped to make the choices you indicate. I hope you are right. The fact that you seek advice here on a relatively straightforward matter, such as appropriate terminology, when you express yourself in writing with such clarity, seems out of kilter with the way you describe yourself in your last post.
What have I to gain from airing my thoughts? Nothing.
What have you to lose from considering them?
Whether my response was borne of my own problems in this arena or not, and I have no difficulty in accepting that this has been a fraught area for me, it was given with sincerity. There is no axe to grind. We are all anonymous here; I dont puff myself up with any sense of self importance that I have a view to impart. I have a valid experience, no more no less. I am nearly twice your age and my married life has been complicated by the fact that notwithstanding my wife's supposed self awareness vis a vis intimacy, sex has always been a source of separation rather than unification. I am probably little less inward looking than you, and eschew the tripe that another poster described as being concurrent with today's moral values.
A difference between you and me might however be that I am constantly on the look out to learn about myself, and do not make assumptions about what the future holds; that is my experience of life. The assumptions and set in stone views of my teens and twenty somethings have been the source of most of my angst. Keeping an open mind is the lesson I learnt. It may be that you are absolutely right about yourself, and that you are equipped to make the choices you indicate. I hope you are right. The fact that you seek advice here on a relatively straightforward matter, such as appropriate terminology, when you express yourself in writing with such clarity, seems out of kilter with the way you describe yourself in your last post.
What have I to gain from airing my thoughts? Nothing.
What have you to lose from considering them?
#14 Guest_Guest_*
Posted 14 August 2005 - 02:01 PM
Flaneur siad she valued mental appreciation over physical attraction.
She can find her Mr Right through exchanging thoughts. Put a personal ad on the internet with details of her personality, like and dislike and what she expects from him. But don't put her picture there. After exchanging email for a period, she can choose a public place to meet him.
I think she should define her value on marriage first. If she thinks sex is important in marriage life, she should have sex before marriage with her potential husband. If not, she should make it clear in the personal ad.
She can find her Mr Right through exchanging thoughts. Put a personal ad on the internet with details of her personality, like and dislike and what she expects from him. But don't put her picture there. After exchanging email for a period, she can choose a public place to meet him.
I think she should define her value on marriage first. If she thinks sex is important in marriage life, she should have sex before marriage with her potential husband. If not, she should make it clear in the personal ad.
#15 Guest_guest_z_*
Posted 14 August 2005 - 02:04 PM
sorry the last guest's post is posted by me not the original Guest
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