[skyblue22]

[B][SIZE=7][COLOR=blue]Hello Lizzie,
Sorry you've got into a pickle. I can't help you at all, except to say, hang in there, it'll be ok, just think of the National Debts owed around the world, your 90,000 is just a little pinprick. Also, get rid of Sky, and get a Freeview box, I've actually got one going spare if you want it, I could post it to you - it's been in the boot of my car for some time, since I was given a better one.

Anyway, I wanted to ask for YOUR advice if I may:

I know someone who is a bit in debt (about 20,000+) and struggling to pay their mortgage - they want to declare themselves bankrupt rather than fight on - I think going bankrupt should be a last resort, and the record of it stays with you for quite some time. This person thinks its perfectly acceptable to go bankrupt these days. What do you think?
All the best,
Skyblue22

[aspirant]

Lizzie,

Bankruptcy is an emotive issue, and many people respond to its mention with a mixture of fear and condescension. I share skyblue22's instinctive wariness of it, but to paraphrase the title of a very good book you can only start where you are.

I'm not at the stage of bankruptcy, but I've voluntarily taken steps to deny myself all forms of credit. It is scary and undoubtedly frustrating at times, but it feels good to know that, however slowly, I'm climbing out of debt, and just getting through every day is, at the very least, not making things worse. And it's been a while since I last stopped making things worse!

I don't know if you've come acrossa copy of 'How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of Debt & Live Prosperously' by Jerrold Mundis. It's a full on read, and the author's raucous style may not be everyone's taste. But he's better than anyone else I've read at reassuring you that you're basically and truly ok, not matter how grim your situation seems. Like the wonderful skyblue22, I have one to spare which you're welcome to have. Maybe Jerrold is right - we do live in an abundant universe!

You're doing alright Lizzie. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Andy

[superbabe612]

Thanks to skyblue22 & Andy for your replies and offers of help.
To Skyblue22, my advice to your friend is to get independent financial advice. I got a free half hour with an insolvency practitioner before I made the final decision to go bankrupt. I didn't have a mortgage or a house to sacrifice, but your friend would lose his/her home by going bankrupt. Is selling the house an option? Would there be enough equity to pay off the debts?
As for the stigma of bankruptcy, it's a tricky one - but I couldn't afford pride to get in the way. The new rules state that the bankruptcy only lasts for 12 months, not years as before. After that I will be a discharged bankrupt, which stays on my credit reference file for 7 years - the same period as unpaid debts, late payments, court judgements, etc. So either way I would not be likely to get credit (the only form of which I'll ever want is a mortgage!) for 7 years, and bankruptcy means I can start over, instead of having all that debt hanging over me. I do feel ashamed about my failed finances, but only as much as I feel ashamed about my failed marriage, my failed business - and it may sound like a cop out, but I'm only 50% to blame for those. Like Andy said, you can only start where you are. I couldn't see how to start anything when I was so much in debt.
To Andy, I'm always hard on myself and always have been! You obviously have more self control than I do. So many times I've been determined not to get more credit - I even cut up my last credit card once, but then a few months later I ordered a replacement! My mum keeps telling me I'm doing so much better than I was, but I was never very good at accepting compliments - or help! I don't feel I deserve them. But we don't want to get into that, it's far too deep and meaningful!
Having said that, thank you for the offer of Jerrold Mundis' book. I haven't heard of it but I've started getting books from the library to give me clues on how to improve my situation so I'll see if they've got it. See, I don't accept help easily!

[aspirant]

Lizzie,

Thanks for responding to my well-intentioned blurt.

I can almost imagine the glint in the Fry eye when you say you find it hard to accept the compliment from your Mum. I'm not sure it was a compliment - wasn't she just giving her opinion, albeit one she presumably very pleased to be able to give?

I've lost some weight recently, and a few colleagues have commented on it. I'm sure they're saying it because they think it will please me, and they certainly didn't comment when I was putting on the weight! But they wouldn't make the comment if I didn't in fact look a bit slimmer, and the scales tell me that I am indeed slimmer. So there's little point in me being bashful and hard on myself when they say so.

As for my self control over credit, I have to admit that my credit record probably had more to clarify my situation than will power did!

I hope you find the Jerrold Mundis book in the library, but I can't see an enormous difference in borrowing the book from the library when you can borrow my copy. It's entirely up to you of course.

I hope you'll post a message again and let us know how you're getting on.

Best wishes,

Andy

[superbabe612]

Well, Andy/aspirant will know that we've been in touch and I've accepted his kind offer of lending Jerrold Mundis book, which I have started reading. As for skyblue22, I've just been on the freeview website and apparently it doesn't work in my postcode area! (which I find a bit strange coz we're not exactly in the middle of nowhere!). So unfortunately I can't accept that kind off of help.

I'm on my second month of writing down all my expenditure and trying to stick to a budget, which is actually working! It's a week after payday & I've got enough to cover most of the bills for the rest of the month - something I've not been able to do for quite a while!

Basically I think I have to stick with it, I must be feeling fairly positive at the moment to be able to write about it, but I know sometimes it just gets so disheartening!

Anyway, thanks for your help and keep in touch.

Lizzie

[Benjamin Fry]

The key to it is that you feel as bad now as you did when you were so in debt. This is about your feelings, not about your money. Working through debt and bankruptcy would have been an emotional work out too. Whatever was processed for you during that time will have had a benefit. However some of it will remain.

The key is to figure out what is the emotional pay-off of sabotaging your finances and then find another way to deal with that emotional issue. At the moment you may be feeling a bit flat because you donít have the excitement of financial trouble to lift you. What is beneath that flatness? Often it can be unexpressed anger or resentment towards an authority figure (hence using money as the theatre of enactment).

The more that you deal with your underlying issues directly the less chance that they will interrupt your hard won financial freedom.

[superbabe612]

benjaminfry, on Jun 3 2005, 04:12 PM, said:

This is about your feelings, not about your money...
At the moment you may be feeling a bit flat because you donít have the excitement of financial trouble to lift you...

Hi Benjamin, and thank you for posting, and thank you for your advice on Spendaholics. The series really gave me the incentive to look at the emotional side of my financial troubles.
As for your comments, god, you're good!
I DO feel as bad now as when I was in debt, because I don't feel I have financial freedom. I don't have enough money to live on, but although I'm not overly extravagant, I know I could still cut back on my spending.
I must admit, you saying I don't have the excitement of financial trouble to lift me hurt a bit. It's almost as if I want the destructive act of struggling with money, like I'm somehow punishing myself - or, as you said, I resent an authority figure and I'm trying to prove something!
One of my biggest extravagances is smoking, which I started at 18 socially, tried unsuccessfully to hide the fact from my mum coz she didn't approve, gave up for a bit, started again socially but hid it from my then husband who didn't approve, then started again with a vengeance and left my husband, and now I rely on it to relieve stress (even though I know it causes stress!).
I could resent a whole number of people - my dad for hitting me when I was a child, my mum for being overprotective, school bullies for picking on me, my sister for being successful, well-paid, happily married and my parents' favourite, my ex-husband for neglecting me... where do I start?

All advice very welcome - whether it hurts or not!

Thanks!

[Benjamin Fry]

Quote

where do I start?

In a nutshell, at the begining, probably with the violent father. Perhaps you can say more about your earliest memories and how you remember feeling. Also what was your father's relationship with money like and how did your mother fit into it?

[superbabe612]

Hi Benjamin,

I don't want to sound like I'm in denial, but my dad only ever hit me once, but it was a big deal. He had a bad temper but on this occasion I'd wound my mother up, but she got the brunt of it as well for trying to stop him from hitting me. My dad dragged me into his room and just kept hitting me. I don't remember any pain, just crying, curled up by the radiator trying to hide from the hitting. He'd pushed my mum back down on to my bed when she tried to protect me, then afterwards she washed my face in the bathroom to try and prevent me from getting a black eye. Please don't anyone think I've got a violent father coz he's just lovely, I love him dearly. I think I remember my mum's emotional reaction to it as much as anything, she was crying the day afterwards while she was cooking Sunday dinner.

As for money, my mum stopped work until I started school. We used to grow our own vegetables & bake our own cakes, and mum would make us summer dresses, but I never realised until she told me recently that it was because they were saving money. We had a nice house, they each had a car, and we had some lovely holidays. They've always been very good with money - and very good at saving. My mum always used to say 'money doesn't grow on trees' and 'I'm not made of money, you know!' but we always had lots of presents for birthdays and christmas - maybe that's where I get my idea of generosity from! I love buying things for people, to see the look of joy on their faces. I used to think I had to spend money on my kids, take them places, buy them things, but I've come to realise just spending time with them makes them just as happy. Because my mum and dad both worked, me and my sister went to a childminder before and after school. I remember being bullied after school once, and I think I blame my mum for not being there. When I had my own kids I started working part-time to make sure I could do the school runs, it's one of the things I swore I'd do differently. But I had a privileged childhood, all in all. Now my mum bails me out financially when I need it, but she says I'm doing better coz I'm asking her for less, and less often. Now my dad's retired, and my mum's due to retire next year, but they're ' very comfortable' and they've made provision for their retirement. I can't ever envisage saving for a pension, or even being able to get a mortgage for a house. I guess their financial wisdom genes passed me by!

[superbabe612]

Hello again,

I just wanted to update you on my situation, I received some very good news today - at least I think it's good news, I'm still not sure what it means, but I have now been discharged from my bankruptcy - after only 6 months! I think I'm safe in saying it will be on my 'credit reference file' for a few years yet but I feel like it's the beginning of a new chapter, and the fact that the investigation into my financial affairs is complete implies that a) I am not a bad person!, I did nothing wrong! (which is harder to believe than to type!) and c) I should take this as a sign that I CAN get through this - and I HAVE got through this! and d) as Benjamin said, I now have my financial freedom. Oh, and e) I'm NOT going to get a credit card!

Money is still a struggle - as are my emotions, but I keep re-reading all your advice so it sticks in my brain! Just because I feel like the poor relation (my parents, sister and best friend are all a whole lot more financially secure than I could ever dream of being!) does not mean I should punish myself with this constant struggle to manage my money, and I should not be angry with them or resent them for being better with money than me. I keep saying should, not will - I still need some convincing! Hopefully this new chapter means I can start afresh, and use my second chance wisely!