It is not out bodies that remain stuck in the past. It is our past that remains stuck in our bodies. It is this residue that stops us being able to live fully in the present.
The problem is precisely that our past is still present in the present. Psychotherapy is often misunderstood as digging up the past. In fact it is about clearing up the effects of the past that linger in the present, thus liberating the future.
Looking for clues
#16
Benjamin Fry 
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Posted 18 May 2005 - 01:06 PM
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#17 Guest_Guest_Trying_*
Posted 17 June 2005 - 11:04 AM
Dear Benjamin,
I just thought I'd cut n' paste my response to a post by Gareth, becuase I wanted you to read it. I was surprised by the role anger seems to play in a lot of my issues, and this was the subject Gareth raised. Even though I never thought this the case, it relates to so much of what I've read about phobias, obsessive compulsive disorders etc, and the real breakthrough is I can even now see the connection with social anxiety. But anger is NEVER talked about in CBT, which is considered the number 1 treatment.
My reply of course encorporates most of your ideas... maybe you could fill in some holes or just reassure me I'm getting it right. I'm certainly feeling a hell of a lot better! Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
T
Dear Gareth,
I think I may be able to help you here. I'm not sure whether you read the reply I left on the thread by Tony, but it was related to what you are thinking about.
Funny, the word anger has come back time and again for me recently as well, and it certainly seems to make a lot fall into place. You know how you can do all this theorizing that seems a little shakey, like you could almost convince yourself of anything, but at other times (perhaps because of less theorizing) something REALLY seems to make sense? The question of anger makes a lot of sense to me, not only because of the literature I have come across that has helped explain it, but also because of my new awareness of these feelings that has occured in conjunction with this new understanding of them.
When I started down my road to healing, I initially thought I had Social Anxiety Disorder, or Social Phobia - an irrational fear of others; the fear of being disliked/judged etc. I can't begin to tell you the agony this can cause because it affects pretty much every area of one's life. You become lonely, reclusive, depressed and all the rest of it. The real route causes behind all this become so lost in the mess of the accompanying symptoms that you get rather lost yourself. You become incapable of really telling the doctor what's the matter, becuase you don't know; you continuously get diverted by the lesser issues. In the end, you really have to work it out for yourself.
It certainly was Social Anxiety (SA), but though that is the term now used to describe the condition, it does rather end up being an attempt to bring it all together under one roof. The reality is of course much different - you cannot tame a wild animal, and if you try it just gets madder. I wonder if there is a sense in you to want to 'tame the wild animal' of your problems? You report your progress on this site frequently, which is good, but perhaps you should learn to be more patient with yourself and take your rollerskates off? That was one of the best things my therapist ever told me. She said "you have certainly grasped it all intellectually, you know what has happened and you know what to do, but now let go and let it happen." Over-intellectualizing can be another attempt to tame this wild animal. We like to create something tangible because the unpredictability of our emotions makes us scared of them. But we cannot really 'control' our emotions, we have to observe, over and above ourselves, the emotions working in us. We must be like a sturdy but flexibal beech and allow ourselves to be shaped by the wind; not a solid and stubborn oak which would be liable to break.
To cut to the chase - anger is a very useful and powerful emotion. It is there so we can weigh up what is good for us. I think that all emotional problems stem from, quite simply, our fear of ourselves - and many of us are frightened of anger -other people's as well as ourselves. As you say, if we were taught it was unacceptable at some time in our pasts, on repeated occasions, then that's all it takes. To let go would be too risky: people would be hurt, we would be disliked, all hell would break lose. So what do we do? We play it safe. We play the nice guy, or conversely, play the angry-all-the-time guy. Both are an avoidance of the real emotion. To me it became so clear that the same applies to SA. I tell you it was a Halleluiah moment when I realised that both my SA and my OCD was actually my fear of inciting anger in either myself or others. OK this realisation doesn't change anything at first, but it gives you a place to start. You get more in touch with your microscopic anger responses and act accordingly. You don't lie, deny, pretend it's not there and hope it goes away. We've all done this and we know where it leads. We get into situations we'd rather not be in, all because we said 'yes' when our anger told us 'no'. We allow people to violate our own personal boundaries, and lose touch with how WE opperate.
So this is how you get in touch with your anger, which is what you enquired about: You don't inflict it upon people (that's a result of repressed rage); you turn inward, be honest with yourself and what you feel. When you think about it, the truth about yourself is only ever what you feel right now. It is false and dishonest to churn over the positive affirmation 'I am patient', 'I am at peace' or 'I am loving' when you actually FEEL impatient, restless and unloving.
"When I decide that 'I am' anything, this exludes me from what is going on in me right now, which is the only reality of what I AM." (From 'Person to Person' by Carl Rogers & Barry Stevens. A brilliant, eye-opening book. Buy it on Amazon!)
I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but it is still good to always remind ourselves that the secret to being emotionally well is in learning to be comfortable with ALL our emotions. Be witness TO them rather than a victim OF them.
This post is a bit all over the place. I hope there are some useful things. This is my own experience rather than my theory. This is just me being honest about myself, hopefully speaking to the honest you, which is the only way a person can truly be of any use to another!
Trying
I just thought I'd cut n' paste my response to a post by Gareth, becuase I wanted you to read it. I was surprised by the role anger seems to play in a lot of my issues, and this was the subject Gareth raised. Even though I never thought this the case, it relates to so much of what I've read about phobias, obsessive compulsive disorders etc, and the real breakthrough is I can even now see the connection with social anxiety. But anger is NEVER talked about in CBT, which is considered the number 1 treatment.
My reply of course encorporates most of your ideas... maybe you could fill in some holes or just reassure me I'm getting it right. I'm certainly feeling a hell of a lot better! Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
T
Dear Gareth,
I think I may be able to help you here. I'm not sure whether you read the reply I left on the thread by Tony, but it was related to what you are thinking about.
Funny, the word anger has come back time and again for me recently as well, and it certainly seems to make a lot fall into place. You know how you can do all this theorizing that seems a little shakey, like you could almost convince yourself of anything, but at other times (perhaps because of less theorizing) something REALLY seems to make sense? The question of anger makes a lot of sense to me, not only because of the literature I have come across that has helped explain it, but also because of my new awareness of these feelings that has occured in conjunction with this new understanding of them.
When I started down my road to healing, I initially thought I had Social Anxiety Disorder, or Social Phobia - an irrational fear of others; the fear of being disliked/judged etc. I can't begin to tell you the agony this can cause because it affects pretty much every area of one's life. You become lonely, reclusive, depressed and all the rest of it. The real route causes behind all this become so lost in the mess of the accompanying symptoms that you get rather lost yourself. You become incapable of really telling the doctor what's the matter, becuase you don't know; you continuously get diverted by the lesser issues. In the end, you really have to work it out for yourself.
It certainly was Social Anxiety (SA), but though that is the term now used to describe the condition, it does rather end up being an attempt to bring it all together under one roof. The reality is of course much different - you cannot tame a wild animal, and if you try it just gets madder. I wonder if there is a sense in you to want to 'tame the wild animal' of your problems? You report your progress on this site frequently, which is good, but perhaps you should learn to be more patient with yourself and take your rollerskates off? That was one of the best things my therapist ever told me. She said "you have certainly grasped it all intellectually, you know what has happened and you know what to do, but now let go and let it happen." Over-intellectualizing can be another attempt to tame this wild animal. We like to create something tangible because the unpredictability of our emotions makes us scared of them. But we cannot really 'control' our emotions, we have to observe, over and above ourselves, the emotions working in us. We must be like a sturdy but flexibal beech and allow ourselves to be shaped by the wind; not a solid and stubborn oak which would be liable to break.
To cut to the chase - anger is a very useful and powerful emotion. It is there so we can weigh up what is good for us. I think that all emotional problems stem from, quite simply, our fear of ourselves - and many of us are frightened of anger -other people's as well as ourselves. As you say, if we were taught it was unacceptable at some time in our pasts, on repeated occasions, then that's all it takes. To let go would be too risky: people would be hurt, we would be disliked, all hell would break lose. So what do we do? We play it safe. We play the nice guy, or conversely, play the angry-all-the-time guy. Both are an avoidance of the real emotion. To me it became so clear that the same applies to SA. I tell you it was a Halleluiah moment when I realised that both my SA and my OCD was actually my fear of inciting anger in either myself or others. OK this realisation doesn't change anything at first, but it gives you a place to start. You get more in touch with your microscopic anger responses and act accordingly. You don't lie, deny, pretend it's not there and hope it goes away. We've all done this and we know where it leads. We get into situations we'd rather not be in, all because we said 'yes' when our anger told us 'no'. We allow people to violate our own personal boundaries, and lose touch with how WE opperate.
So this is how you get in touch with your anger, which is what you enquired about: You don't inflict it upon people (that's a result of repressed rage); you turn inward, be honest with yourself and what you feel. When you think about it, the truth about yourself is only ever what you feel right now. It is false and dishonest to churn over the positive affirmation 'I am patient', 'I am at peace' or 'I am loving' when you actually FEEL impatient, restless and unloving.
"When I decide that 'I am' anything, this exludes me from what is going on in me right now, which is the only reality of what I AM." (From 'Person to Person' by Carl Rogers & Barry Stevens. A brilliant, eye-opening book. Buy it on Amazon!)
I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but it is still good to always remind ourselves that the secret to being emotionally well is in learning to be comfortable with ALL our emotions. Be witness TO them rather than a victim OF them.
This post is a bit all over the place. I hope there are some useful things. This is my own experience rather than my theory. This is just me being honest about myself, hopefully speaking to the honest you, which is the only way a person can truly be of any use to another!
Trying
#18
Trying
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Posted 04 August 2005 - 10:16 AM
Grrrrrrrrrrr. I'm getting no-where. I've just managed to make myself more unhappy, more angry and irritable, and more depressed. I think I'll finally relent and give CBT a go. What have I got to loose...?
Andrew
Andrew
#19
Benjamin Fry
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 02:59 PM
Other people are just about the strongest triggers of all. Donít expect to pass the PHD before your O-levels. The journey you are on is moving. But it will take time. Iíd suggest that you try to slow down the social interaction into a more structured setting, like group therapy. Perhaps ask your therapist if there is something local you could join. Then you can take it one step at a time.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#20 Guest_Andy_*
Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:58 PM
I am very embarassed by a lot of the waffle I have written in this thread. Please could you delete it?! I know it's a slightly strange request but I really do write some silly things and would rather have the peace of mind that they're not out there on the web somewhere!
Reading back over my posts I have noticed (particularly in the way I try to respond to other's problems) quite a lot of anger. I get preachy, and it hurts me reading it a year later realizing I still haven't sorted myself out and thought I knew what I was talking about. For the first time my therapist recognised just how much anger I have. Anger that I am so shy, anger that I can't seem to do anything about it, anger at the universe and at God for not caring or existing, anger at people for ignoring me and not taking me seriously, anger at my secondary school, anger at 'cool', confident people.
Over recent week I have been having mini 'breakdowns' in the middle of public places which really scares me. What would my family think if they knew? Like most families they probably think madness, suicide, emotional problems and despair happen to 'other people'. So you can imagine how frightened I am realising what I have become.
I mean, I got lost in London the other day and couldn't find my way back to the where I was supposed to be. It was just too much - because I just felt life was laughing at me - and I collapsed in the street, crying out. People ignored me, of course, and I thought how terrible existence is. I feel like I have finally become the outsider who is of no use whatsoever to himself or society. Even a caring society has little use for people who won't help themselves. I have very little strength. I stopped with my therapist because I have run out of money.
Have been reading a lot of Alice Miller. It's about directing anger (possibly in therapy) at the correct perpetrators and realising, and feeling, how hurt we actually were as kids. The question again and again though, is how, given that it can't be forced? Everything makes sense to me. My mother used to say how I 'never like hugs' and that I always resisted them, that I 'never did anything', 'never get involved', and also that I was a just a difficult, fussy eater. But I know the truth is children don't act, they react. I learned that I possibly did this as a form of punishment to my mum. When we don't get, we act as though we don't want. What other choice do we have?
So the clues are all there. Something upset me quite deeply, but what?
Reading back over my posts I have noticed (particularly in the way I try to respond to other's problems) quite a lot of anger. I get preachy, and it hurts me reading it a year later realizing I still haven't sorted myself out and thought I knew what I was talking about. For the first time my therapist recognised just how much anger I have. Anger that I am so shy, anger that I can't seem to do anything about it, anger at the universe and at God for not caring or existing, anger at people for ignoring me and not taking me seriously, anger at my secondary school, anger at 'cool', confident people.
Over recent week I have been having mini 'breakdowns' in the middle of public places which really scares me. What would my family think if they knew? Like most families they probably think madness, suicide, emotional problems and despair happen to 'other people'. So you can imagine how frightened I am realising what I have become.
I mean, I got lost in London the other day and couldn't find my way back to the where I was supposed to be. It was just too much - because I just felt life was laughing at me - and I collapsed in the street, crying out. People ignored me, of course, and I thought how terrible existence is. I feel like I have finally become the outsider who is of no use whatsoever to himself or society. Even a caring society has little use for people who won't help themselves. I have very little strength. I stopped with my therapist because I have run out of money.
Have been reading a lot of Alice Miller. It's about directing anger (possibly in therapy) at the correct perpetrators and realising, and feeling, how hurt we actually were as kids. The question again and again though, is how, given that it can't be forced? Everything makes sense to me. My mother used to say how I 'never like hugs' and that I always resisted them, that I 'never did anything', 'never get involved', and also that I was a just a difficult, fussy eater. But I know the truth is children don't act, they react. I learned that I possibly did this as a form of punishment to my mum. When we don't get, we act as though we don't want. What other choice do we have?
So the clues are all there. Something upset me quite deeply, but what?
#21
Benjamin Fry
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Posted 09 November 2005 - 03:51 PM
Anger is a mask for fear. It is how animals respond to a threat. When something is dangerous we are afraid of it, and then we get angry to deal with it. However if getting angry makes the threat worse then it gets complicated.
As a child, if you ìdid not like hugsî, then you were clearly afraid of those people trying to hug you (if indeed they actually were trying). If you were afraid of these people, then you would have been angry with them. However, you may have been afraid precisely because they were so threatening when you were angry. In which case, you anger would both have been more and more stimulated and more and more repressed. This leaves a blank, shy canvas covering a volcano of anger.
I suspect that what you have always wanted was someone just to be there for you; to show you the way. Your experience of being overwhelmed by becoming lost in London probably mirrors this sense of being lost and your sadness that no-one will help you, even when helpless (just like a young child).
The process of grieving the loss of the nurturing that you never received, and never will receive, is a hard one. However if you can get into it, then you may lose your fear of your anger and thus begin to set yourself free.
As a child, if you ìdid not like hugsî, then you were clearly afraid of those people trying to hug you (if indeed they actually were trying). If you were afraid of these people, then you would have been angry with them. However, you may have been afraid precisely because they were so threatening when you were angry. In which case, you anger would both have been more and more stimulated and more and more repressed. This leaves a blank, shy canvas covering a volcano of anger.
I suspect that what you have always wanted was someone just to be there for you; to show you the way. Your experience of being overwhelmed by becoming lost in London probably mirrors this sense of being lost and your sadness that no-one will help you, even when helpless (just like a young child).
The process of grieving the loss of the nurturing that you never received, and never will receive, is a hard one. However if you can get into it, then you may lose your fear of your anger and thus begin to set yourself free.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#22 Guest_Andy_*
Posted 13 November 2005 - 03:47 PM
You have hit on something very close to what it feels like being me, so much so that reading your reply upset me (in a good way, I mean!).
It seems to apply to the relationship I have with my mother. My getting angry would always lead to my mother getting even more angry than me. This would scare me, because she was really upset. You could sense it in the quiver in her voice, almost like she was holding back tears. I have very strong memories of this making me feel anxious - probably because it still does - so it's little wonder that today other people's strong emotions terrify me, and I have to play nice to keep everyone safe.
As far as I am concerned, everybody I meet has this unpredictableness, and I feel that most people (even people who like me) wouldn't think twice about expressing there anger and disappointment with me all of a sudden. With my mum, I could always sense it build, and it never took much to tip her over the edge. I learnt very well not to push her to this point, so I had no choice but to repress my own annoyance and back down. I could never be the moody teenager when living with one even moodier! They wasn't really a 'cusioning' for my difficult feelings - just another person's fear. There was rarely ever empathy for me and my brother's fears and struggles, as I think it would have resonated too close to home with mum's fears about herself. She is, I am convinced, still a frightened child who never worked through her massive fear of her parents. I think my brother and I became a doormat for this fear.
The extraordinary thing is how this has all lead to the lonely, frightened, depressive that I have become. I have a good income now - but I am living a life where I am not part of the deal. The need to survive is dragging me along whether I like it or not. This keeps my mum happy because it appears to keep my problems away (from her...?). So she wins: I live away from home, I have an income, I work 6 days a week, I have less time to 'moan' about my problems, and I'm alive.
But I also have no life, no friends, no energy, no sense of humour, no sex, no say in anything, and just don't want to exist.
It seems to apply to the relationship I have with my mother. My getting angry would always lead to my mother getting even more angry than me. This would scare me, because she was really upset. You could sense it in the quiver in her voice, almost like she was holding back tears. I have very strong memories of this making me feel anxious - probably because it still does - so it's little wonder that today other people's strong emotions terrify me, and I have to play nice to keep everyone safe.
As far as I am concerned, everybody I meet has this unpredictableness, and I feel that most people (even people who like me) wouldn't think twice about expressing there anger and disappointment with me all of a sudden. With my mum, I could always sense it build, and it never took much to tip her over the edge. I learnt very well not to push her to this point, so I had no choice but to repress my own annoyance and back down. I could never be the moody teenager when living with one even moodier! They wasn't really a 'cusioning' for my difficult feelings - just another person's fear. There was rarely ever empathy for me and my brother's fears and struggles, as I think it would have resonated too close to home with mum's fears about herself. She is, I am convinced, still a frightened child who never worked through her massive fear of her parents. I think my brother and I became a doormat for this fear.
The extraordinary thing is how this has all lead to the lonely, frightened, depressive that I have become. I have a good income now - but I am living a life where I am not part of the deal. The need to survive is dragging me along whether I like it or not. This keeps my mum happy because it appears to keep my problems away (from her...?). So she wins: I live away from home, I have an income, I work 6 days a week, I have less time to 'moan' about my problems, and I'm alive.
But I also have no life, no friends, no energy, no sense of humour, no sex, no say in anything, and just don't want to exist.
#23
Benjamin Fry
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Posted 14 November 2005 - 03:15 PM
Your mother has in a way stolen your potency. Her anger would always trump yours. I suspect that everyone in your family was unconsciously editing their every move so as to anticipate and avoid her temper. Thus you gradually lose you capacity to recognise your own grievance and are alert only to those of others. In that way, you lose yourself.
This is so deeply embedded in you that you are projecting your unresolved issues with your mother onto ìeverybody I meetî. Youíll take the smallest crumb of volatility (which everyone has) and turn it in your mindís eye in into the volcano of your mother.
I think that ìkeeping your mum happyî while you are not is the habit of a lifetime. Whatís stopping you from changing it?
This is so deeply embedded in you that you are projecting your unresolved issues with your mother onto ìeverybody I meetî. Youíll take the smallest crumb of volatility (which everyone has) and turn it in your mindís eye in into the volcano of your mother.
I think that ìkeeping your mum happyî while you are not is the habit of a lifetime. Whatís stopping you from changing it?
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#24 Guest_Guest_*
Posted 22 November 2005 - 05:21 PM
Quote
Whatís stopping you from changing it?
I wasn't sure if that was a question for me to ponder or whether you wanted a response? That 'what' is exactly where I am stuck.
My mum in a way supports my therapy and 'accepts' my problems, but also asks impatient questions like "well, is it actually doing anything?" My adapted child responds by trying to explain itself - to keep her happy. But I end up betraying my true feelings. I have never been able to articulate my feelings because words always fail me - small wonder my way of coping is silence. It's not that I choose not to say anything, it's more like my voice box is removed and I can't speak. Perhaps some people get mad, others may walk away. But the only thing I could ever do was withdraw (pain being at the route of introversion perhaps?) because I couldn't verbally defend myself. I was then called a sulk which would make me withdraw even more into my shell. Afterwards she'd try to pull me out again with harmless teasing "who's got a grumpy face then?" I'm no family relations expert, but I'd hazard a guess that when parents feel guilty about upsetting their child, the next stage of the drama is to dump these horrible feelings onto that child? So that ultimately the child in such a family is never allowed to win?
The other day after a 'row', my mum stormed off and I ended up going and apologizing and giving her a hug - but she never does that to me. My deep, unconscious belief is obviously "well, I guess I've always been wrong about everything in my entire life."
I think my real feelings just want to blurt out (after so many years) "For crying out loud, I'm doing what I can and what I think is right. Isn't that enough? I don't need to always explain everything."
#25
Benjamin Fry
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Posted 12 December 2005 - 02:44 PM
The challenge you face at the moment is the difference between ìblurt out loudî and simply stating with some assurance: whatever you need to say. Perhaps you could start with your mother. Write down what you need to say, and ask her if it is okay to talk to her. Then read what you have written in a relatively calm way.
Whatever makes you recoil from this idea is what I was asking you to think about when I said ìwhatís stopping you from changing it?î
Whatever makes you recoil from this idea is what I was asking you to think about when I said ìwhatís stopping you from changing it?î
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#26
Trying
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 03:48 PM
Recently I stopped seeing my therapist and I've also stopped talking to anyone about my problems because I think people find me predictable and perhaps boring. The result of keeping silent is that the people in my life think I'm doing much better, but inside I feel even worse. I can see in retrospect what I choose to do was stop upsetting those around me with my problems, naively thinking I'd be healed into the deal. Actually freeing myself from my fear I find an impossible task though, and just can't seem to ask that of myself emotionally. I seem to be left with no option but silence.
So I have to say some things here cos I'll explode if I don't.
I thought maybe my issues really would lessen if I resisted the temptation to always vent everything when things go badly for me. Perhaps then I'd stop identifying so heavily with my problems as the centre of my life and actually have a bit more normality and happiness.
Well, I don't feel any better. My anxiety and depression hasn't gone away, but it has changed in its nature though. It is in fact easier to describe what my anxiety and depression was like in my early 20s than it is now. Today I just can't talk about what I think and feel. Sometimes there aren't any words for it. I really need a doctor or someone to tell me 'Yes, you're actually fucked up and there is this thing inside your brain which is damaged beyond repair and that is why despite all your efforts you aren't going to get better.' Maybe then I'd accept myself. But because I don't know what the hell is wrong, I just reason that I am bad, stupid, a complete failure, an outcast and a useless waste of space.
Do you think it's hopeless? Surely for some people who can't get to the bottom of there issues, suicide IS in fact a reasonable option? Who on earth wants a life of frustration, anger, and fear? Maybe I am just not mature enough to really deal with my issues at a deep level. Maybe my 30s will be the decade I make a breakthrough. Maybe later? I just need some hope, but hope to me isn't some external thing, it is an internal belief and I don't really believe in anything at all. I know you have to believe in something for it to become true for you, but surely I need to value my life first in order to begin believing in it? I don't even really believe in human beings. But how can I say these sorts of things to other people? They'd probably retort "Well if the world is so disappointing to you why don't you kill yourself? Go away and be depressed somewhere else."
So I have to say some things here cos I'll explode if I don't.
I thought maybe my issues really would lessen if I resisted the temptation to always vent everything when things go badly for me. Perhaps then I'd stop identifying so heavily with my problems as the centre of my life and actually have a bit more normality and happiness.
Well, I don't feel any better. My anxiety and depression hasn't gone away, but it has changed in its nature though. It is in fact easier to describe what my anxiety and depression was like in my early 20s than it is now. Today I just can't talk about what I think and feel. Sometimes there aren't any words for it. I really need a doctor or someone to tell me 'Yes, you're actually fucked up and there is this thing inside your brain which is damaged beyond repair and that is why despite all your efforts you aren't going to get better.' Maybe then I'd accept myself. But because I don't know what the hell is wrong, I just reason that I am bad, stupid, a complete failure, an outcast and a useless waste of space.
Do you think it's hopeless? Surely for some people who can't get to the bottom of there issues, suicide IS in fact a reasonable option? Who on earth wants a life of frustration, anger, and fear? Maybe I am just not mature enough to really deal with my issues at a deep level. Maybe my 30s will be the decade I make a breakthrough. Maybe later? I just need some hope, but hope to me isn't some external thing, it is an internal belief and I don't really believe in anything at all. I know you have to believe in something for it to become true for you, but surely I need to value my life first in order to begin believing in it? I don't even really believe in human beings. But how can I say these sorts of things to other people? They'd probably retort "Well if the world is so disappointing to you why don't you kill yourself? Go away and be depressed somewhere else."
#27
wretched
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Posted 02 October 2006 - 06:00 PM
sorry trying/doing, i feel the need to do some of my own out pouring in your thread...
its just that two things you said struck a chord with me.
The first thing was you asking is suicide the only answer for those who feel like it an impossible, hopeless task to get to the bottom of their issues... I feel exactly like that!!! I feel like i will never get anywhere with my issues, in fact, they just seem to be getting worse and worse and worse as i get older!! I feel despair every day about this.
The other thing (an earlier thing you wrote about), one of my big issues actually, is that i feel that i am never going to be at peace (or secure) in any relationship with a man, precisely because i feel completely threatened and offended that any boyfriend i am ever with will feel raging hormones in the presence of any attractive woman (like you described!). and if i suspect or see or know that my boyfriend feels that about another woman i feel utterly enraged and rejected and inadequate and betrayed, thinking ëhow dare they feel like that for someone else more than they feel it for me for even a second!!! i am obviously not good enough for them they would rather have someone else more attractive than me (ie, that other woman)!í i canít imagine a day when i will not feel completely gutted and totally offended by this (what everyone tells me is) a completely natural and normal male feeling that males can't help. i feel stupid that i can't deal with it as everyone else manages to deal with it perfectly well, they don't mind that their boyfriends fancy other women all the time every day! it doesnít help that an ex boyfriend that i just recently split up with admitted that they had a secret crush on their friendís wife, and if she wasnít married to his friend he would have left me for her!!!!!!! this was utterly devastating and i am feeling completely inadequate, unlovable and completely unable to ever manage to keep hold of a man for any length of time again in my life.
These feelings all, Iím sure, stem from some or all of my childhood experiences, its either the verbally abusive treatment of me by my father (for over 20 years of my miserable little life!) , or the abandonment of me by my mother as an infant as she was postnatally depressed and trying to commit suicide! (but how can i use this knowledge to help me get over these things???????)
since my ex and i have split, i have cried and cried and cried so much that i have grey sunken skin under and around my eyes! its bad enough crying all the time and feeling depressed and useless and hopeless, but another problem is that i canít bring myself to or let myself cry in front of anyone as i am not at all close to my family and have no close friends. so i feel utterly utterly alone and ashamed of the pathetic person i am, and of course, wretched!
sorry again. i always feel guilty for talking about my feelings and issues as i think it must be tiresome for other people too hear my whinging and self-pitying moaning. thats why i never talk about anything bad i ever feel to anyone and only ever cry by myself in secret in my bedroom. (like i did as a child after my dad had shouted and or ranted at me for no reason (but for his own projections, of course!) and my mother ignored me and my plight). and i always pretend to everyone that i am ok and everything is ok (like the rest of britain in this crappy reserved culture!)
my main question is, to Benjamin, or anyone, is my life doomed to be an eternity of feeling betrayed, rejected, unloveable as i have spent nearly 30 years feeling like already, and am i just going to cry and cry and feel depressed about it for the rest of my life, crying myself to death? the central message of the book is to just feel what you feel and let it out. but i am completely fed up of feeling like this and letting it out is not seeming to be very good for my health (i keep getting colds and have aches and pains all the time) and i seem to only be feeling worse and not better. it doesnít feel like i will ever feel better! help!!!
back to trying/doing, it sounds awful that you are so trapped by this obligation of always having to please your mother and make her happy, so much so that you are not able to be happy yourself! i can totally understand where you are coming from though, cos i always felt that my mother's emotional needs came before my own as she was fragile and depressed, and couldn't cope or help me with my problems (especially with my dad). and now i am fragile and depressed!
its just that two things you said struck a chord with me.
The first thing was you asking is suicide the only answer for those who feel like it an impossible, hopeless task to get to the bottom of their issues... I feel exactly like that!!! I feel like i will never get anywhere with my issues, in fact, they just seem to be getting worse and worse and worse as i get older!! I feel despair every day about this.
The other thing (an earlier thing you wrote about), one of my big issues actually, is that i feel that i am never going to be at peace (or secure) in any relationship with a man, precisely because i feel completely threatened and offended that any boyfriend i am ever with will feel raging hormones in the presence of any attractive woman (like you described!). and if i suspect or see or know that my boyfriend feels that about another woman i feel utterly enraged and rejected and inadequate and betrayed, thinking ëhow dare they feel like that for someone else more than they feel it for me for even a second!!! i am obviously not good enough for them they would rather have someone else more attractive than me (ie, that other woman)!í i canít imagine a day when i will not feel completely gutted and totally offended by this (what everyone tells me is) a completely natural and normal male feeling that males can't help. i feel stupid that i can't deal with it as everyone else manages to deal with it perfectly well, they don't mind that their boyfriends fancy other women all the time every day! it doesnít help that an ex boyfriend that i just recently split up with admitted that they had a secret crush on their friendís wife, and if she wasnít married to his friend he would have left me for her!!!!!!! this was utterly devastating and i am feeling completely inadequate, unlovable and completely unable to ever manage to keep hold of a man for any length of time again in my life.
These feelings all, Iím sure, stem from some or all of my childhood experiences, its either the verbally abusive treatment of me by my father (for over 20 years of my miserable little life!) , or the abandonment of me by my mother as an infant as she was postnatally depressed and trying to commit suicide! (but how can i use this knowledge to help me get over these things???????)
since my ex and i have split, i have cried and cried and cried so much that i have grey sunken skin under and around my eyes! its bad enough crying all the time and feeling depressed and useless and hopeless, but another problem is that i canít bring myself to or let myself cry in front of anyone as i am not at all close to my family and have no close friends. so i feel utterly utterly alone and ashamed of the pathetic person i am, and of course, wretched!
sorry again. i always feel guilty for talking about my feelings and issues as i think it must be tiresome for other people too hear my whinging and self-pitying moaning. thats why i never talk about anything bad i ever feel to anyone and only ever cry by myself in secret in my bedroom. (like i did as a child after my dad had shouted and or ranted at me for no reason (but for his own projections, of course!) and my mother ignored me and my plight). and i always pretend to everyone that i am ok and everything is ok (like the rest of britain in this crappy reserved culture!)
my main question is, to Benjamin, or anyone, is my life doomed to be an eternity of feeling betrayed, rejected, unloveable as i have spent nearly 30 years feeling like already, and am i just going to cry and cry and feel depressed about it for the rest of my life, crying myself to death? the central message of the book is to just feel what you feel and let it out. but i am completely fed up of feeling like this and letting it out is not seeming to be very good for my health (i keep getting colds and have aches and pains all the time) and i seem to only be feeling worse and not better. it doesnít feel like i will ever feel better! help!!!
back to trying/doing, it sounds awful that you are so trapped by this obligation of always having to please your mother and make her happy, so much so that you are not able to be happy yourself! i can totally understand where you are coming from though, cos i always felt that my mother's emotional needs came before my own as she was fragile and depressed, and couldn't cope or help me with my problems (especially with my dad). and now i am fragile and depressed!
#28
wretched
- Newbie
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- Joined: 02-October 06
Posted 02 October 2006 - 06:46 PM
hello trying/doing/andy(again)
just read some of your posts i seem to have missed before and found even more appropriate things to me... as I too also have social anxiety, and recently been having anxiety attacks on the tube in london. and have a lot of anger in me!
did your therapy help with the social anxiety, or help with anything? i feel like i want to try therapy, but am mistrustful/suspicious as there are many stories of dysfunctional therapeutic relationships. did you also try anti-depressants? i am in a state and don't know what to do with myself. I do think of ending it all as indeed, why would anyone want a whole lifetime of suffering, difficulty and confusion???????????? i certainly don't!
just read some of your posts i seem to have missed before and found even more appropriate things to me... as I too also have social anxiety, and recently been having anxiety attacks on the tube in london. and have a lot of anger in me!
did your therapy help with the social anxiety, or help with anything? i feel like i want to try therapy, but am mistrustful/suspicious as there are many stories of dysfunctional therapeutic relationships. did you also try anti-depressants? i am in a state and don't know what to do with myself. I do think of ending it all as indeed, why would anyone want a whole lifetime of suffering, difficulty and confusion???????????? i certainly don't!
#29
Trying
- Advanced Member
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- Group: Members
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- Joined: 27-June 04
Posted 08 October 2006 - 05:51 PM
Hello 'Wretched'
I have no time now as am in internet cafe, but thank you so much for your posts. Nice to hear another voice out there who sounds like they're in that same trapped place. Not that I'm happy you're going through it(!), but it's nice to be reminded that it is normal for people to deal with these sorts of feelings. Well, maybe not 'normal' if they are this extreme, but at least human.
I will write more soon. You mention guilt... I'm slowly learning that guilt may lie at the centre of quite a lot of crippling emotional problems. You also mention the tubes! Do you live in 'orrible London as well then?!
Andy
I have no time now as am in internet cafe, but thank you so much for your posts. Nice to hear another voice out there who sounds like they're in that same trapped place. Not that I'm happy you're going through it(!), but it's nice to be reminded that it is normal for people to deal with these sorts of feelings. Well, maybe not 'normal' if they are this extreme, but at least human.
I will write more soon. You mention guilt... I'm slowly learning that guilt may lie at the centre of quite a lot of crippling emotional problems. You also mention the tubes! Do you live in 'orrible London as well then?!
Andy
#30
Jenny
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- Joined: 16-February 07
Posted 24 March 2007 - 11:34 PM
Hey trying...
Just identified with your post there... I have found it hard the past (and still find it hard to shake now), that belief that I must be whining because of not being able to pinpoint any 'serious' problems. It does make it hard, people don't understand... how many times have you compared yourself to REAL problems & REALLY put yourself down for it? Many times for me... I think I'm getting there... I know I've made progress but I always compare myself to who I REALLY could be if I hadn't made such mistakes. I can rationalise my mistakes & be easy going about them also, but then, just as I'm feeling good about where I am, something happens to confuse the situation & I end up right back where I started (like yesterday). Today of course, Is a new day, & like I told myself yesterday (with a lot of conviction!), all would be well in the morning. Almost, (it still took yet more convincing when I opened my unrested eyes!). But now, later in the day, I don't feel half (or a quarter!) as bad. It's strange how that happens... sometimes we're strong enough to get over things, other times not.
Anyway, I've blabbered on! All the best for you,
Jen :-)
Just identified with your post there... I have found it hard the past (and still find it hard to shake now), that belief that I must be whining because of not being able to pinpoint any 'serious' problems. It does make it hard, people don't understand... how many times have you compared yourself to REAL problems & REALLY put yourself down for it? Many times for me... I think I'm getting there... I know I've made progress but I always compare myself to who I REALLY could be if I hadn't made such mistakes. I can rationalise my mistakes & be easy going about them also, but then, just as I'm feeling good about where I am, something happens to confuse the situation & I end up right back where I started (like yesterday). Today of course, Is a new day, & like I told myself yesterday (with a lot of conviction!), all would be well in the morning. Almost, (it still took yet more convincing when I opened my unrested eyes!). But now, later in the day, I don't feel half (or a quarter!) as bad. It's strange how that happens... sometimes we're strong enough to get over things, other times not.
Anyway, I've blabbered on! All the best for you,
Jen :-)
Trying, on Oct 27 2004, 07:39 PM, said:
I have just finished your book. Firstly, I think putting a big red cross on the front is a fantastic touch! You are, indeed, healing a great wound in the psyche of the world. The best thing your book has over other ìself-helpî books is the true-life examples. I took the time to read over the Q&A posts in a way I hadnít when scouring the pages of the website, (because I was so absorbed in my own posts). But of course after reading the contributions of others, plus your own examples, they ALL seem relevant to my problem, no matter how the actual facts may differ.
You seem to recognise the universal reasons and truths, if you like, behind peopleís suffering (the emotional drama) while at the same time empathizing with the individual circumstances. This is right up my street because I have always been interested in what is behind the negative thoughts and fear that therapists are always trying to get you to stop dwelling on. Why do we feel the need to do it in the first place? You have explained why.
It is tricky pinpointing exactly where one has to start applying this wisdom to their own life, but I see that this is the purpose of this part of the website, so will try to get the questions out of my system that I really want to.
My own emotional reactions as I read the book are worth noting, because there might be some clues in them. One of the most obvious being the way I was threatened by your conquests, as a young man, with ladies. Sorry, there is absolutely no reason I should feel this ñ itís all so silly ñ but I felt it, so thought I should ask you about it. I always feel threatened by this because I am so ashamed of my own dysfunction in this area. This is not a new feeling though. It is exactly the same emotion that was ëborní when I was 11 years old, when a boy in my class told me how many girls heíd snogged. I remember then, at 11, feeling totally inadequate. Itís been the same ever since. Funny that the fear has remained, keeping the experience that Iíd need to feel a bit more ënormalí well at bay.
Perhaps, just as when one reads a self-help book you identify with the author as a figure of security, reassurance and comfort (rather like a therapist?), I have done the same here? So when I read the bits I cannot identify with, I am threatened by them. Iím trying to be as honest as I can. I donít know you, but I react emotionally to your personal stories. Maybe jealousy? Funny, this validates your point about the people who are important being the oneís you also project negativity onto, even when you donít know them! Such is the peculiar nature of projection. I frequently check this site (far too much) so there goes my mind again - looking for an attachment of some sort, and you have provided it. Not you the real you, but rather the words written by you, that appear on my computer screen, and make me feel good.
I can identify very strongly with your experiences in the desert. I had an experience smoking weed that was interesting. I know that sounds trivial compared to what you went through, but your last chapter on God has made me look at it again. I myself, and everyone I ever spoke to about it, would naturally dismiss it as nonsense because I was ë just stonedí. But there is still unconscious stuff going on, isnít there? Maybe it offers some insights. After all, most times Iíve heard about other peopleís drug experiences they talk about being a bit ëmerryí, but mine always swing from sheer terror to a God-like nirvana. Whatís going on? I had one experience where I literally felt a presence in my mind was making me aware of the fact that I really was a useless, dysfunctional piece of excrement. Evil, rotten ñ unlovable. And everyone else in the world was good, and loved by God. This was why I was unhappy ñ because I was bad. I was going to go to hell. The offspring of Satanís faeces. Donít laugh ñ thatís the clearest I can articulate what I was thinking! This ended, though in the bliss of a warm embrace of an angelís wings ñ like you describe. My own arms took on a life of their own, and wrapped me up in a kind of explosive sexual hug. Scary ñ I was not in control at all, but I loved it!
All of these things my therapist doesnít seem to take any interest in. Is he sustaining the atmosphere of embarrassment and shame that I carry with regards to my feelings?
Maybe I am ashamed that I think I have problems. A book on my life wouldnít carry half the poignancy and drama (your motherís picture falling off the wallÖ) that your book does. These moments donít appear to be there. Am I just being a bit whiney? Is it, on the contrary, much harder for those of us who canít pinpoint anything in particular, because we feel like such frauds?
You seem to recognise the universal reasons and truths, if you like, behind peopleís suffering (the emotional drama) while at the same time empathizing with the individual circumstances. This is right up my street because I have always been interested in what is behind the negative thoughts and fear that therapists are always trying to get you to stop dwelling on. Why do we feel the need to do it in the first place? You have explained why.
It is tricky pinpointing exactly where one has to start applying this wisdom to their own life, but I see that this is the purpose of this part of the website, so will try to get the questions out of my system that I really want to.
My own emotional reactions as I read the book are worth noting, because there might be some clues in them. One of the most obvious being the way I was threatened by your conquests, as a young man, with ladies. Sorry, there is absolutely no reason I should feel this ñ itís all so silly ñ but I felt it, so thought I should ask you about it. I always feel threatened by this because I am so ashamed of my own dysfunction in this area. This is not a new feeling though. It is exactly the same emotion that was ëborní when I was 11 years old, when a boy in my class told me how many girls heíd snogged. I remember then, at 11, feeling totally inadequate. Itís been the same ever since. Funny that the fear has remained, keeping the experience that Iíd need to feel a bit more ënormalí well at bay.
Perhaps, just as when one reads a self-help book you identify with the author as a figure of security, reassurance and comfort (rather like a therapist?), I have done the same here? So when I read the bits I cannot identify with, I am threatened by them. Iím trying to be as honest as I can. I donít know you, but I react emotionally to your personal stories. Maybe jealousy? Funny, this validates your point about the people who are important being the oneís you also project negativity onto, even when you donít know them! Such is the peculiar nature of projection. I frequently check this site (far too much) so there goes my mind again - looking for an attachment of some sort, and you have provided it. Not you the real you, but rather the words written by you, that appear on my computer screen, and make me feel good.
I can identify very strongly with your experiences in the desert. I had an experience smoking weed that was interesting. I know that sounds trivial compared to what you went through, but your last chapter on God has made me look at it again. I myself, and everyone I ever spoke to about it, would naturally dismiss it as nonsense because I was ë just stonedí. But there is still unconscious stuff going on, isnít there? Maybe it offers some insights. After all, most times Iíve heard about other peopleís drug experiences they talk about being a bit ëmerryí, but mine always swing from sheer terror to a God-like nirvana. Whatís going on? I had one experience where I literally felt a presence in my mind was making me aware of the fact that I really was a useless, dysfunctional piece of excrement. Evil, rotten ñ unlovable. And everyone else in the world was good, and loved by God. This was why I was unhappy ñ because I was bad. I was going to go to hell. The offspring of Satanís faeces. Donít laugh ñ thatís the clearest I can articulate what I was thinking! This ended, though in the bliss of a warm embrace of an angelís wings ñ like you describe. My own arms took on a life of their own, and wrapped me up in a kind of explosive sexual hug. Scary ñ I was not in control at all, but I loved it!
All of these things my therapist doesnít seem to take any interest in. Is he sustaining the atmosphere of embarrassment and shame that I carry with regards to my feelings?
Maybe I am ashamed that I think I have problems. A book on my life wouldnít carry half the poignancy and drama (your motherís picture falling off the wallÖ) that your book does. These moments donít appear to be there. Am I just being a bit whiney? Is it, on the contrary, much harder for those of us who canít pinpoint anything in particular, because we feel like such frauds?
