I have just finished your book. Firstly, I think putting a big red cross on the front is a fantastic touch! You are, indeed, healing a great wound in the psyche of the world. The best thing your book has over other “self-help” books is the true-life examples. I took the time to read over the Q&A posts in a way I hadn’t when scouring the pages of the website, (because I was so absorbed in my own posts). But of course after reading the contributions of others, plus your own examples, they ALL seem relevant to my problem, no matter how the actual facts may differ.
You seem to recognise the universal reasons and truths, if you like, behind people’s suffering (the emotional drama) while at the same time empathizing with the individual circumstances. This is right up my street because I have always been interested in what is behind the negative thoughts and fear that therapists are always trying to get you to stop dwelling on. Why do we feel the need to do it in the first place? You have explained why.
It is tricky pinpointing exactly where one has to start applying this wisdom to their own life, but I see that this is the purpose of this part of the website, so will try to get the questions out of my system that I really want to.
My own emotional reactions as I read the book are worth noting, because there might be some clues in them. One of the most obvious being the way I was threatened by your conquests, as a young man, with ladies. Sorry, there is absolutely no reason I should feel this – it’s all so silly – but I felt it, so thought I should ask you about it. I always feel threatened by this because I am so ashamed of my own dysfunction in this area. This is not a new feeling though. It is exactly the same emotion that was ‘born’ when I was 11 years old, when a boy in my class told me how many girls he’d snogged. I remember then, at 11, feeling totally inadequate. It’s been the same ever since. Funny that the fear has remained, keeping the experience that I’d need to feel a bit more ‘normal’ well at bay.
Perhaps, just as when one reads a self-help book you identify with the author as a figure of security, reassurance and comfort (rather like a therapist?), I have done the same here? So when I read the bits I cannot identify with, I am threatened by them. I’m trying to be as honest as I can. I don’t know you, but I react emotionally to your personal stories. Maybe jealousy? Funny, this validates your point about the people who are important being the one’s you also project negativity onto, even when you don’t know them! Such is the peculiar nature of projection. I frequently check this site (far too much) so there goes my mind again - looking for an attachment of some sort, and you have provided it. Not you the real you, but rather the words written by you, that appear on my computer screen, and make me feel good.
I can identify very strongly with your experiences in the desert. I had an experience smoking weed that was interesting. I know that sounds trivial compared to what you went through, but your last chapter on God has made me look at it again. I myself, and everyone I ever spoke to about it, would naturally dismiss it as nonsense because I was ‘ just stoned’. But there is still unconscious stuff going on, isn’t there? Maybe it offers some insights. After all, most times I’ve heard about other people’s drug experiences they talk about being a bit ‘merry’, but mine always swing from sheer terror to a God-like nirvana. What’s going on? I had one experience where I literally felt a presence in my mind was making me aware of the fact that I really was a useless, dysfunctional piece of excrement. Evil, rotten – unlovable. And everyone else in the world was good, and loved by God. This was why I was unhappy – because I was bad. I was going to go to hell. The offspring of Satan’s faeces. Don’t laugh – that’s the clearest I can articulate what I was thinking! This ended, though in the bliss of a warm embrace of an angel’s wings – like you describe. My own arms took on a life of their own, and wrapped me up in a kind of explosive sexual hug. Scary – I was not in control at all, but I loved it!
All of these things my therapist doesn’t seem to take any interest in. Is he sustaining the atmosphere of embarrassment and shame that I carry with regards to my feelings?
Maybe I am ashamed that I think I have problems. A book on my life wouldn’t carry half the poignancy and drama (your mother’s picture falling off the wall…) that your book does. These moments don’t appear to be there. Am I just being a bit whiney? Is it, on the contrary, much harder for those of us who can’t pinpoint anything in particular, because we feel like such frauds?
Looking for clues
#2
Benjamin Fry 
- Administrator
-
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Gender:Male
Posted 09 November 2004 - 05:12 PM
Experiences under the influence can provide short cuts to the unconscious. This is often why people do it and enjoy it. But it also illustrates the danger that we repress from our unconscious. There is where we store all of the other stuff that we dare not engage with. Short cuts are dangerous because these issues require a solid foundation if we are to bear them. However they throw up interesting clues!
Something somewhere at some time has made you feel like the offspring of Satanís faeces. No wonder then that when you first encounter the idea that another human might become sexually involved with you, your first reaction is to remark on how you were inadequate. Perhaps this was set up in childhood. Perhaps there was a lack of intimacy that left you feeling physically worthless. In any case these are the issues you must work on.
I canít comment on your therapist. He will have reasons for his methods. If you are feeling embarrassment and shame while with him, the very best thing you can do is to say so. Iím surprised that you claim that you canít pinpoint anything in particular. I was under the impression that you did. Perhaps you donít feel that it is enough? The truth is that if you are sensitive then it perhaps doesnít take too much. From then on life works on you like drops of rain on a wooden foundation. It is often not the trauma that hurts us, but the environment in which we are subsequently forced to keep it repressed. Trauma in and out is normal and natural. Repression is not.
Something somewhere at some time has made you feel like the offspring of Satanís faeces. No wonder then that when you first encounter the idea that another human might become sexually involved with you, your first reaction is to remark on how you were inadequate. Perhaps this was set up in childhood. Perhaps there was a lack of intimacy that left you feeling physically worthless. In any case these are the issues you must work on.
I canít comment on your therapist. He will have reasons for his methods. If you are feeling embarrassment and shame while with him, the very best thing you can do is to say so. Iím surprised that you claim that you canít pinpoint anything in particular. I was under the impression that you did. Perhaps you donít feel that it is enough? The truth is that if you are sensitive then it perhaps doesnít take too much. From then on life works on you like drops of rain on a wooden foundation. It is often not the trauma that hurts us, but the environment in which we are subsequently forced to keep it repressed. Trauma in and out is normal and natural. Repression is not.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#3 Guest_Guest_Trying_*
Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:36 PM
Dear Ben,
I took the decision (very difficult!) to go and see a different therapist, and it has changed everything. I'm seeing a female one for a start, which I think is important for me. She seems much more receptive to the mind/body trauma things I've been reading about. Poor old men. I don't think I'm generalizing when I say a lot of men have a mental stumbling block when it comes to the emotional mind/body stuff, even, I'm sure, some very well respected male therapists.
When I say I find it tricky pinpointing an event - I actually mean I find it difficult to know how to let the trauma do it's thing when it tries to emerge, without me burying it all over again. For example, I was at a concert the other day, and I had to perform something (I'm a musician) in front of about 200 people. I was terrified, and really thought I was going to have a heart attack. It's never been that bad before. But of course, with all your advice in my head, I was thinking "right, this is one of those moments..." But what do I do? What CAN I do? Should I be announcing, "Ok everyone, I'm terrified here, please bare with me." or chanting "Be gone trauma! Come out - I banish thee forever!" See where I'm confused? Because of polite social etiqette, you simply can't have these cathartic breakdowns! Any pointers?
However, thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. For the first time I sense a little bit of peace waiting on the horizon.
I took the decision (very difficult!) to go and see a different therapist, and it has changed everything. I'm seeing a female one for a start, which I think is important for me. She seems much more receptive to the mind/body trauma things I've been reading about. Poor old men. I don't think I'm generalizing when I say a lot of men have a mental stumbling block when it comes to the emotional mind/body stuff, even, I'm sure, some very well respected male therapists.
When I say I find it tricky pinpointing an event - I actually mean I find it difficult to know how to let the trauma do it's thing when it tries to emerge, without me burying it all over again. For example, I was at a concert the other day, and I had to perform something (I'm a musician) in front of about 200 people. I was terrified, and really thought I was going to have a heart attack. It's never been that bad before. But of course, with all your advice in my head, I was thinking "right, this is one of those moments..." But what do I do? What CAN I do? Should I be announcing, "Ok everyone, I'm terrified here, please bare with me." or chanting "Be gone trauma! Come out - I banish thee forever!" See where I'm confused? Because of polite social etiqette, you simply can't have these cathartic breakdowns! Any pointers?
However, thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. For the first time I sense a little bit of peace waiting on the horizon.
#4
Benjamin Fry
- Administrator
-
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Gender:Male
Posted 16 November 2004 - 08:35 AM
Well done. A relationship with a therapist is a very intense experience and it takes a lot of courage to move on.
You illustrate the central challenge of emotional healing. It is actually quite a zen art to get through what you describe so donít be disheartened if you canít achieve it immediately. The good thing is that you are now trying.
The trick is to be terrified, think you are going to have a heart attack and not mind. It sounds impossible, but it can be achieved if you remember the logic of my book. You are getting there. What you describe is not so much the discomfort of the fear itself, but the massive problem of resisting the fear, wanting to change it and being afraid of its consequences. If you accept the fear, donít interfere with it and accept any consequences, then it can just happen, healing you into the bargain. It requires that you have an awareness of yourself that is somewhat over and above yourself. Thatís the tricky bit. A little meditation practice might help.
I suspect that you were overwhelmed by worrying what other people might think if you could not cope on stage. As soon as you are letting other peopleís imaginary opinions run your nervous system then you are going to struggle. The important thing is to find a way just to be, and to let your feelings flow uninterrupted by your limited conscious mind.
You illustrate the central challenge of emotional healing. It is actually quite a zen art to get through what you describe so donít be disheartened if you canít achieve it immediately. The good thing is that you are now trying.
The trick is to be terrified, think you are going to have a heart attack and not mind. It sounds impossible, but it can be achieved if you remember the logic of my book. You are getting there. What you describe is not so much the discomfort of the fear itself, but the massive problem of resisting the fear, wanting to change it and being afraid of its consequences. If you accept the fear, donít interfere with it and accept any consequences, then it can just happen, healing you into the bargain. It requires that you have an awareness of yourself that is somewhat over and above yourself. Thatís the tricky bit. A little meditation practice might help.
I suspect that you were overwhelmed by worrying what other people might think if you could not cope on stage. As soon as you are letting other peopleís imaginary opinions run your nervous system then you are going to struggle. The important thing is to find a way just to be, and to let your feelings flow uninterrupted by your limited conscious mind.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#5 Guest_Guest_Trying_*
Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:55 PM
I've just spent the last half hour scratching my face up, hitting myself and screaming. I thought about hanging myself. There's no-one in the house. I found myself screaming 'God, I'm so alone', as if there is someone who is listening. But there isn't. I am alone. As soon as a member of my family walks through the door my tears will dry up. They will ask how I am, and I'll say "Oh, I'm fine." They will get angry if I tell them what I was really feeling. My family are equally fucked up and don't want other fucked up people to remind them of this. I feel like a raisin in a fucked up family salad. We're all of us frightened that, God forbid, our family members might actually be fragile emotional beings too.
I was watching some sex on the TV. My mum walked in and I felt like a guilty 8 year old. I'm 25. I felt terrible anger. God I'm repressed.
I will talk to my therapist. This is just a rehearsal.
I was watching some sex on the TV. My mum walked in and I felt like a guilty 8 year old. I'm 25. I felt terrible anger. God I'm repressed.
I will talk to my therapist. This is just a rehearsal.
#6 Guest_Guest_TRYING_*
Posted 18 December 2004 - 04:32 PM
Dear Ben,
Sorry about that earlier post.
Now I am engaging with these issues, each day appears to offer insights in the way I understand myself, but the fear nevertheless remains. To express it as clearly as I can; the intellectual breakthroughs don't seem to aid any emotional ones.
When I was small, I was picked on by my mum and brother (even though they were only joking, ha ha ha) because I was a very fussy eater and was always extremely thin. That in itself tells me that I had by that point already experienced some trauma - eating fads are linked to such things, aren't they? So, along with having this problem, I received more blows from my family who just called me things like 'string bean' and 'skin 'n bones'. Families do that, don't they?!
But the bottom line is the teasing always really hurt me, even though they 'were only joking'. This is typical of when people tease to the point that the victim gets upset. Suddenly your attacker is overcome with guilt, and tells you they're only kidding and you shouldn't be so sensitive. They are washing their hands of the fact that they upset you, and the general message is: 'it was your fault for getting hurt in the first place'!!!
I think you may be absolutely right: I think I have been made to feel physically worthless. I have always identified profoundly with being a scrawny runt, and though I never made the link until now, I'm now convinced this physical 'felt sense' (or lack of it) relates directly to how I have always felt about myself intellectually and emotionally aswell. I am hoping to start Tai Chi in the new year, which I hope may help reconnect some of that lost sense of the physical/animal 'me'! Happy Christmas!
Sorry about that earlier post.
Now I am engaging with these issues, each day appears to offer insights in the way I understand myself, but the fear nevertheless remains. To express it as clearly as I can; the intellectual breakthroughs don't seem to aid any emotional ones.
When I was small, I was picked on by my mum and brother (even though they were only joking, ha ha ha) because I was a very fussy eater and was always extremely thin. That in itself tells me that I had by that point already experienced some trauma - eating fads are linked to such things, aren't they? So, along with having this problem, I received more blows from my family who just called me things like 'string bean' and 'skin 'n bones'. Families do that, don't they?!
But the bottom line is the teasing always really hurt me, even though they 'were only joking'. This is typical of when people tease to the point that the victim gets upset. Suddenly your attacker is overcome with guilt, and tells you they're only kidding and you shouldn't be so sensitive. They are washing their hands of the fact that they upset you, and the general message is: 'it was your fault for getting hurt in the first place'!!!
I think you may be absolutely right: I think I have been made to feel physically worthless. I have always identified profoundly with being a scrawny runt, and though I never made the link until now, I'm now convinced this physical 'felt sense' (or lack of it) relates directly to how I have always felt about myself intellectually and emotionally aswell. I am hoping to start Tai Chi in the new year, which I hope may help reconnect some of that lost sense of the physical/animal 'me'! Happy Christmas!
#7
Benjamin Fry
- Administrator
-
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Gender:Male
Posted 31 December 2004 - 11:48 AM
Iím glad you are feeling better. You are right that an intellectual appreciation of your emotional situation is not a cure in itself. However it is a good start. The next step is to use this understanding to let yourself become more emotionally aware and therefore to allow yourself to feel more (which is good, not bad!). This will happen in part automatically as you educate your fearful conscious mind that emotions are actually your friend along the path to sound health. But it also is something that you can actively move along yourself. I think that Tai Chi is a great initiative. It sounds like you could use a bit of a better connection to your body and certainly this should allow you to find your physical power and to value your physical self a bit more. It seems like you are already developing the ability to listen to your own unconscious wisdom in identifying your needs.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#8 Guest_Guest_Trying_*
Posted 14 January 2005 - 04:34 PM
I promised to myself to stop posting, but it does provide a much needed release valve. I apologise if the followiong is long-winded and tedious. I hope you don't mind reading it.
I am really feeling very distressed by it all! But I am desperately trying to view it all as right, good and necessary. I was recommended another self-help book by my therapist - a very good one, I'll give it that - but I was quickly annoyed by this because I feel very unlistened to a lot of the time. It occured to me that therapists will only do what they know how to do, which may or may not be suitable for you as an individual. I have learned so much myself, but when I report this back to them, they will steer my knowledge back to their way of thinking. Basically, if I see a dentist, he'll clean my teeth; If I see a personal trainer, he'll tell me to do more exercise; if I see a comedian, he'll tell me a joke... You see what I mean. We're on our own really, and we get it wrong a lot of the time.
In a book I read on depression, the writer said "if you think you know more than your therapist, you are probably right...", and I think I agree with him. It's frustrating because, in a way I feel I've moved further than the points I'm currently at in analysis. I was even told that Social Anxiety doesn't really exist. Ok, I recognise that it's just a label, but I've been to the Social Anxiety chat rooms, and it would appear this is one of the most misunderstood conditions there is. You've got literally thousands of people all stuck in the same place, wondering why there is nothing anybody seems to be able to do to help them. With that as the bottom line, we then choose to battle on ourselves, by being positive and sending ourselves mad with delusional mental strategies to ease the fear. I looked at some of the websites, and was fascinated by how similarly we all thought.
I read the phrase, "Remember, you are in control of your mind. You always have a choice." In other words, you have an attitude problem which needs changing. But I have got hold of 'Waking The Tiger' - (where every page seemed to be written about me!) which seems to say the opposite: that trauma quite literally alters the biochemisty of your brain, and that there is a reason why it keeps people trapped, in spite of all their hard work to change.
But the phrase you wrote to me that really offered hope was "if you could fully unearth what is at the moment just a resonance, you'd be free of this baggage." I certainly now recognise fully how massive the resistance of the conscious mind can be. I understand practically everything about my behaviour, but I am so brilliant at masking emotion that I don't seem to be able to 'fall apart'. Earlier today I had to face something near the top of my "what scares me most" list, and without going into details, I was in this situation for about 5 hours, and had to run into the men's because I felt I needed a moment to cry. I didn't quite. At this point I recognised the sadness and fear was exactly the same that I felt when I was homesick at school as a boy. I have the fear of a 10 year old boy in a man's body, and perhaps unconsciously still wanted mummy to hold my hand, but my conscious mind knows I have to 'act' like a grown up, and it does so by trying to bottle up my fear. I think this explains why our problems can get worse as we grow up. We begin to think "I shouldn't be like this at my age.", but your emotions aren't listening. No wonder we think babies are so happy all the time. It's not because they ARE happy all time; it's because they don't judge their emotions. In fact, a typical day in the life of a baby is full of emotional extremes, but they have a perfect way of dealing with it: they just go with the flow!
I was emotionlly knackered after the event. But I know I hadn't 'used' the opportunity to feel the fear. It's like I knock at the door but run away, so I can console myself with 'at least I tried'. But it's too much to bare when I'm there. I'm trying to put on a brave face but under the surface the honest truth to my life on this earth is... HELP!!
I am really feeling very distressed by it all! But I am desperately trying to view it all as right, good and necessary. I was recommended another self-help book by my therapist - a very good one, I'll give it that - but I was quickly annoyed by this because I feel very unlistened to a lot of the time. It occured to me that therapists will only do what they know how to do, which may or may not be suitable for you as an individual. I have learned so much myself, but when I report this back to them, they will steer my knowledge back to their way of thinking. Basically, if I see a dentist, he'll clean my teeth; If I see a personal trainer, he'll tell me to do more exercise; if I see a comedian, he'll tell me a joke... You see what I mean. We're on our own really, and we get it wrong a lot of the time.
In a book I read on depression, the writer said "if you think you know more than your therapist, you are probably right...", and I think I agree with him. It's frustrating because, in a way I feel I've moved further than the points I'm currently at in analysis. I was even told that Social Anxiety doesn't really exist. Ok, I recognise that it's just a label, but I've been to the Social Anxiety chat rooms, and it would appear this is one of the most misunderstood conditions there is. You've got literally thousands of people all stuck in the same place, wondering why there is nothing anybody seems to be able to do to help them. With that as the bottom line, we then choose to battle on ourselves, by being positive and sending ourselves mad with delusional mental strategies to ease the fear. I looked at some of the websites, and was fascinated by how similarly we all thought.
I read the phrase, "Remember, you are in control of your mind. You always have a choice." In other words, you have an attitude problem which needs changing. But I have got hold of 'Waking The Tiger' - (where every page seemed to be written about me!) which seems to say the opposite: that trauma quite literally alters the biochemisty of your brain, and that there is a reason why it keeps people trapped, in spite of all their hard work to change.
But the phrase you wrote to me that really offered hope was "if you could fully unearth what is at the moment just a resonance, you'd be free of this baggage." I certainly now recognise fully how massive the resistance of the conscious mind can be. I understand practically everything about my behaviour, but I am so brilliant at masking emotion that I don't seem to be able to 'fall apart'. Earlier today I had to face something near the top of my "what scares me most" list, and without going into details, I was in this situation for about 5 hours, and had to run into the men's because I felt I needed a moment to cry. I didn't quite. At this point I recognised the sadness and fear was exactly the same that I felt when I was homesick at school as a boy. I have the fear of a 10 year old boy in a man's body, and perhaps unconsciously still wanted mummy to hold my hand, but my conscious mind knows I have to 'act' like a grown up, and it does so by trying to bottle up my fear. I think this explains why our problems can get worse as we grow up. We begin to think "I shouldn't be like this at my age.", but your emotions aren't listening. No wonder we think babies are so happy all the time. It's not because they ARE happy all time; it's because they don't judge their emotions. In fact, a typical day in the life of a baby is full of emotional extremes, but they have a perfect way of dealing with it: they just go with the flow!
I was emotionlly knackered after the event. But I know I hadn't 'used' the opportunity to feel the fear. It's like I knock at the door but run away, so I can console myself with 'at least I tried'. But it's too much to bare when I'm there. I'm trying to put on a brave face but under the surface the honest truth to my life on this earth is... HELP!!
#9
Benjamin Fry
- Administrator
-
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Gender:Male
Posted 14 January 2005 - 04:59 PM
Excellent. As you have observed, you really do seem to have all the intellectual appreciation of your problems. Maybe you do know more than your therapist. Moving on to the next stage of letting it work is the hard bit, but also the easy bit because life automatically brings you to these points, as you so well describe.
Just keep going, accept that it wonít always be perfect and be patient. It does take a long time, but the resolution is accelerated if you keep reminding your conscious resistance that it is not actually helping. Keep asking for help. Itís surprisingly easy to come across, especially when genuinely asked for.
Just keep going, accept that it wonít always be perfect and be patient. It does take a long time, but the resolution is accelerated if you keep reminding your conscious resistance that it is not actually helping. Keep asking for help. Itís surprisingly easy to come across, especially when genuinely asked for.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#10 Guest_Doing!_*
Posted 18 January 2005 - 09:32 PM
Thanks for the reasurrance!
I thought I'd change my user name to 'Doing' instead of 'Trying' because I read something about how our mind gravitates toward whatever is in it. An interesting concept, which would mean that if my mind thinks 'I am trying', it will always be stuck in 'trying' because that is what it expects to get. If I think 'I am doing', then perhaps I will get something!
Something I thought about recently which I thought you might help me with:
I was wondering where such a profound fear of judgement comes from, as is the case with me. Fear of judgement is my big issue, hence all the Social Anxiety stuff, so unearthing it's cause is, I think, crucial. I'm not talking about how we learn it from our upbringing (that's obvious to me: I constantly witness both my parents perpetually seeking approval from life, or their parents), but rather why it becomes such a 'necessary' thing for the human mind. Given that judgement, guilt, shame and things like that are exclusively human emotions, then they are clearly illusions of the conscious intellect, and underneath is something much more basic, that we probably share in common with most other animals.
Then fear of judgement has evolved from a survival instinct. When we are about 2 years old perhaps, we decide we better work really hard to get love, because we correctly deduce that if we don't get love, we will die. In other words, love, in all its glory, is essentially there to keep us from death. Where there is love there is most definately life, and where there is no love there is death. You only have to think of primate pack-behaviour: Safety in numbers - love evolves to keep us close to the pack. Love didn't suddenly come into being when people invented a word for it. If it has always been there, what is it really? I suppose it is the need for togetherness. It is not sentimental, it is essential! The rather bleak conclusion is that a fear of judgement and/or desperate need for love is actually a fear of death! What a horrible thought! A connection with my traumatic operation as baby methinks? Maybe.
It is ironic (if you believe in the After Life) that we hope death will deliver us into some kind of eternal love, when love is so clearly about being alive. It is THE most important survival instinct. Love is given to us while we are alive, so we don't get dead!!
I'm saying all this because perhaps a part of happiness is teaching myself that, whilest I was correct that I needed love to survive when I was 2, I don't need it now. Yes, it is nice, important and feels good, but I can still stand on my own two feet without it. Transactional Analysis is absolutely right: it is the child in us that hasn't learned that today you don't need this acceptance (love) to safely exist.
It can be quite a depressing thought that love, a feeling so powerful that we create Gods, write poems and compose symphonies in its name; a feeling that we get all our reason for living from is exactly that, the reason FOR living. We are at its mercy and all it want for us is to stay alive, and eventually go mad for the opposite sex so we replace ourselves. Love is evolution's greatest invention, and we are a no more than a tiny cog in the machine of time. Then we can kick the bucket, because love has done its job and is done with us.
If this is where a fear of judgment comes from, how can I do a deal with my survival instincts?
I thought I'd change my user name to 'Doing' instead of 'Trying' because I read something about how our mind gravitates toward whatever is in it. An interesting concept, which would mean that if my mind thinks 'I am trying', it will always be stuck in 'trying' because that is what it expects to get. If I think 'I am doing', then perhaps I will get something!
Something I thought about recently which I thought you might help me with:
I was wondering where such a profound fear of judgement comes from, as is the case with me. Fear of judgement is my big issue, hence all the Social Anxiety stuff, so unearthing it's cause is, I think, crucial. I'm not talking about how we learn it from our upbringing (that's obvious to me: I constantly witness both my parents perpetually seeking approval from life, or their parents), but rather why it becomes such a 'necessary' thing for the human mind. Given that judgement, guilt, shame and things like that are exclusively human emotions, then they are clearly illusions of the conscious intellect, and underneath is something much more basic, that we probably share in common with most other animals.
Then fear of judgement has evolved from a survival instinct. When we are about 2 years old perhaps, we decide we better work really hard to get love, because we correctly deduce that if we don't get love, we will die. In other words, love, in all its glory, is essentially there to keep us from death. Where there is love there is most definately life, and where there is no love there is death. You only have to think of primate pack-behaviour: Safety in numbers - love evolves to keep us close to the pack. Love didn't suddenly come into being when people invented a word for it. If it has always been there, what is it really? I suppose it is the need for togetherness. It is not sentimental, it is essential! The rather bleak conclusion is that a fear of judgement and/or desperate need for love is actually a fear of death! What a horrible thought! A connection with my traumatic operation as baby methinks? Maybe.
It is ironic (if you believe in the After Life) that we hope death will deliver us into some kind of eternal love, when love is so clearly about being alive. It is THE most important survival instinct. Love is given to us while we are alive, so we don't get dead!!
I'm saying all this because perhaps a part of happiness is teaching myself that, whilest I was correct that I needed love to survive when I was 2, I don't need it now. Yes, it is nice, important and feels good, but I can still stand on my own two feet without it. Transactional Analysis is absolutely right: it is the child in us that hasn't learned that today you don't need this acceptance (love) to safely exist.
It can be quite a depressing thought that love, a feeling so powerful that we create Gods, write poems and compose symphonies in its name; a feeling that we get all our reason for living from is exactly that, the reason FOR living. We are at its mercy and all it want for us is to stay alive, and eventually go mad for the opposite sex so we replace ourselves. Love is evolution's greatest invention, and we are a no more than a tiny cog in the machine of time. Then we can kick the bucket, because love has done its job and is done with us.
If this is where a fear of judgment comes from, how can I do a deal with my survival instincts?
#11 Guest_Doing_*
Posted 18 January 2005 - 09:37 PM
Benjamin's answer: "Continue along the path you have been going along with my book!"
OK!
OK!
#12
Benjamin Fry
- Administrator
-
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Gender:Male
Posted 21 January 2005 - 05:49 PM
There are wheels within wheels and layers upon layers. Usually anything that is a deep truth in life exists in a paradox. So if love is a survival strategy for avoiding death, it is also a survivorsí strategy for embracing life.
Survival is where we start in life and many of us get stuck in it. However beyond this point of fear and trauma is another landscape in which love plays a different role. It is not just the method for avoiding death: it can become the reason for life.
These layers are quite well revealed by the chakra system. Thereís a good graphic at myss.com which illustrates this. Right now you are talking from the first three chakras, which are very appropriate for engaging in issues of trauma from your infancy. Love however lives very vibrantly in the realms of the higher chakras. There its energy is transformed into something else. This is actually the grail that you seek in all of your own transformational work.
Survival is where we start in life and many of us get stuck in it. However beyond this point of fear and trauma is another landscape in which love plays a different role. It is not just the method for avoiding death: it can become the reason for life.
These layers are quite well revealed by the chakra system. Thereís a good graphic at myss.com which illustrates this. Right now you are talking from the first three chakras, which are very appropriate for engaging in issues of trauma from your infancy. Love however lives very vibrantly in the realms of the higher chakras. There its energy is transformed into something else. This is actually the grail that you seek in all of your own transformational work.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#13 Guest_Guest_Trying_*
Posted 14 April 2005 - 12:46 PM
Dear Ben,
I decided to go to the doctors to talk about my problems. Together with following the advice in your book, I thought that some antidepressants might help make me more positive about myself whilest I worked through some of your ideas.
I just felt so disconnected and alone that I thought I could benefit from something to lift my mood enough to work through the emotions.
I was just wondering if you thought this was a bad idea? I don't exactly know what goes on in the brain with the drugs - even the people who manufacture them have a limited understanding of what happens - but if it invloves, in some way, a kind of repression of the depression, then maybe the drugs prevent being able to work through the emotions...?
Can you identify with what I am feeling? I am meditating a lot on life, feelings, spirituality and so forth. In one way I think I have this deep, rich soul that is hungry for life and learning, but it leaves me feeling profoundly alienated from the real world. My attempt to connect leaves me feeling very disconnected. Of course, this all makes sense from a psychoanalytic point of view, that would say that no matter how deep, sensitive or spititual I think I am, I am simply adopting childlike ways of compensating for lack of emotional nourishment. To put it bluntly - am I just very sexually starved? I think perhaps I am. I have always felt extremely sexual, but never been able to overcome the fear that goes hand in hand with it. Could I benefit from seeing a sex/relationship therapist to talk about this long ignored aspect of myself? I attended a wedding the other day and for the dinner I was sat next to a gorgeous Russian girl, and had a nice chat for about 2 hours. I felt the hormones raging through my body and felt so alive. One conversation with an attractive girl can lift mood like no other medication on the planet! I wouldn't be surprised if my depression is linked to the belief I have developed that I will never find intamacy. Therapists tell me there are a lot of very happy single people out there and it feels like a death sentence.
The Freudian model seems to suggest that those of us who like to think of ourselves as 'sensitive', have quite simply not grown up. We have the weakest sense of self, and all our soul searching and sensitivity is testament to this. We are compensating for not having our needs met; we are over-intellectualising to avoid fear; we fantasise and become narcissistic ('my problems must have a spiritual significance', 'I must be special and different') to ignore unbearable realities.
Change is so, so difficult. You can understand why I eventually gave in to the antidepressants.
I decided to go to the doctors to talk about my problems. Together with following the advice in your book, I thought that some antidepressants might help make me more positive about myself whilest I worked through some of your ideas.
I just felt so disconnected and alone that I thought I could benefit from something to lift my mood enough to work through the emotions.
I was just wondering if you thought this was a bad idea? I don't exactly know what goes on in the brain with the drugs - even the people who manufacture them have a limited understanding of what happens - but if it invloves, in some way, a kind of repression of the depression, then maybe the drugs prevent being able to work through the emotions...?
Can you identify with what I am feeling? I am meditating a lot on life, feelings, spirituality and so forth. In one way I think I have this deep, rich soul that is hungry for life and learning, but it leaves me feeling profoundly alienated from the real world. My attempt to connect leaves me feeling very disconnected. Of course, this all makes sense from a psychoanalytic point of view, that would say that no matter how deep, sensitive or spititual I think I am, I am simply adopting childlike ways of compensating for lack of emotional nourishment. To put it bluntly - am I just very sexually starved? I think perhaps I am. I have always felt extremely sexual, but never been able to overcome the fear that goes hand in hand with it. Could I benefit from seeing a sex/relationship therapist to talk about this long ignored aspect of myself? I attended a wedding the other day and for the dinner I was sat next to a gorgeous Russian girl, and had a nice chat for about 2 hours. I felt the hormones raging through my body and felt so alive. One conversation with an attractive girl can lift mood like no other medication on the planet! I wouldn't be surprised if my depression is linked to the belief I have developed that I will never find intamacy. Therapists tell me there are a lot of very happy single people out there and it feels like a death sentence.
The Freudian model seems to suggest that those of us who like to think of ourselves as 'sensitive', have quite simply not grown up. We have the weakest sense of self, and all our soul searching and sensitivity is testament to this. We are compensating for not having our needs met; we are over-intellectualising to avoid fear; we fantasise and become narcissistic ('my problems must have a spiritual significance', 'I must be special and different') to ignore unbearable realities.
Change is so, so difficult. You can understand why I eventually gave in to the antidepressants.
#14
Benjamin Fry
- Administrator
-
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Gender:Male
Posted 15 April 2005 - 05:14 PM
You should take your doctorís advice regarding medication. I won't have a better point of view from just a web-forum. In general Iíve seen that anti-depressants tend to become something that people usually come to want to give up taking. Sometimes they find this hard and then wonder if it was such a good idea to start. Body chemistry is a complex and sometimes fragile thing.
The best model for their use seems to be to take something to help you get into a process of emotional recovery such as therapy, and then gradually let the therapy take over before you have been on them for too long. But individual cases of course vary. I hope yours work out for you.
Sexual issues are very fertile areas for therapeutic analysis. Iíd certainly encourage you to discuss your feelings in this are with someone who can help you, but I think youíll find that pretty much all therapists fancy themselves as relationship therapists. If you think you have specific sexual issues then you may wish to find someone who claims to have a particular expertise in that area, but in general most therapists should be able to help you with these issues as much as they can (or canít) with any other.
The best model for their use seems to be to take something to help you get into a process of emotional recovery such as therapy, and then gradually let the therapy take over before you have been on them for too long. But individual cases of course vary. I hope yours work out for you.
Sexual issues are very fertile areas for therapeutic analysis. Iíd certainly encourage you to discuss your feelings in this are with someone who can help you, but I think youíll find that pretty much all therapists fancy themselves as relationship therapists. If you think you have specific sexual issues then you may wish to find someone who claims to have a particular expertise in that area, but in general most therapists should be able to help you with these issues as much as they can (or canít) with any other.
visit benjaminfry.co.uk for more information on my work
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
support getstable.org for better mental health treatment in the UK
#15 Guest_Guest_Trying_*
Posted 17 May 2005 - 12:55 PM
Dear Ben,
Hello, how are things!!?
I have grasped the crux of the message in your book, and I see the effects of trauma very clearly now in my life. The 'over and above yourself' vantage point that you talk about is very helpful. I don't know why it has taken so long to sink in, and even now I have moments when I forget what's going on, but I have found a saying that helps me remember your main idea, which is "I NEED to feel this right now." It helps me refrain from judging whatever emotional state my body happens to be in. This thought pleased my therapist, who said the important change in me was the fact I went "Sod it, this is how I feel right now. They are MY feelings."
So I am worrying why I feel no different? From one point of view I could see it as a gift: I feel I have become more patient, more understanding of others, and see the world in much broader terms. In one sense the blinkers have been removed. A real transformation is taking place because of my problems and I am thankful for it because I am learning what I always wanted to know about life. But all this insight appears to be of no use, because I am still socially anxious and can't share, express myself, or help other people. I feel as though I am being punished.
The real test is what happens as soon as I am in the presence of another. The irony is that I am trying to educate myself, when alone, about how to lower defenses, love myself and connect more. Out I go with my new wisdom and as soon as I'm in the presence of others, up go the defenses. My body just isn't listening! It makes me want to despair. I end up going down the 'self improvement' road in order to move through fear, which is probably what many of believe we need to do to be 'cured'. But, as my therapist knows, I don't need to be improved. So we're back to square one. Here I am, wonderful and loving and totally OK, but frightened.
A spiritual perspective would say we suffer because we never live in the present: we lament the past or worry about the future - both of which are illusionary. But the mechanics of trauma says our bodies can remain stuck in the past, holding us as prisoners to it, so therefore we are not to blame. How do you reconcile the two viewpoints?
Hello, how are things!!?
I have grasped the crux of the message in your book, and I see the effects of trauma very clearly now in my life. The 'over and above yourself' vantage point that you talk about is very helpful. I don't know why it has taken so long to sink in, and even now I have moments when I forget what's going on, but I have found a saying that helps me remember your main idea, which is "I NEED to feel this right now." It helps me refrain from judging whatever emotional state my body happens to be in. This thought pleased my therapist, who said the important change in me was the fact I went "Sod it, this is how I feel right now. They are MY feelings."
So I am worrying why I feel no different? From one point of view I could see it as a gift: I feel I have become more patient, more understanding of others, and see the world in much broader terms. In one sense the blinkers have been removed. A real transformation is taking place because of my problems and I am thankful for it because I am learning what I always wanted to know about life. But all this insight appears to be of no use, because I am still socially anxious and can't share, express myself, or help other people. I feel as though I am being punished.
The real test is what happens as soon as I am in the presence of another. The irony is that I am trying to educate myself, when alone, about how to lower defenses, love myself and connect more. Out I go with my new wisdom and as soon as I'm in the presence of others, up go the defenses. My body just isn't listening! It makes me want to despair. I end up going down the 'self improvement' road in order to move through fear, which is probably what many of believe we need to do to be 'cured'. But, as my therapist knows, I don't need to be improved. So we're back to square one. Here I am, wonderful and loving and totally OK, but frightened.
A spiritual perspective would say we suffer because we never live in the present: we lament the past or worry about the future - both of which are illusionary. But the mechanics of trauma says our bodies can remain stuck in the past, holding us as prisoners to it, so therefore we are not to blame. How do you reconcile the two viewpoints?
