[Zephyer]

I have a deep desire for my wife to go and have sex with someone else. this has turned into an obsession over the last six years. I keep trying to talk her into having an affair with someone else but she doesn't want to. I don't understand why as we do have sex together and I don't want her to leave me.

[Benjamin Fry]

It is good that you are questioning this behaviour rather than solely acting out on it. That is the start of a switch from using it dysfunctionally to beginning a psychosocial understanding prompted by these urges.

There is something else here that is trying to be articulated. The reality is that it is not part of the normal rhythm of married life to encourage extra-marital intercourse by your partner. Therefore the urges mask a different message that can not otherwise be consciously communicated right now. Our task is to discover what that message might be.

You give me very little to go on, so I will simply speculate on a few themes that may or may not be relevant. It would be helpful if you could then pick up on anything that gets your attention. Often using sexual behaviour as a way of acting out deeper emotional issues denotes an interruption somewhere in the normal sexual development of the child. This can be from something as sever and malicious as sexual abuse or something accidental like the witnessing of a sexual act in confusing circumstances. Sometimes the more extreme abuse is actually completely blacked out by the mind, so strong was the trauma. This can lead to therapists suggesting possible abuse and then a whole controversy about ìrecovered memoriesî, so it is a very difficult area to negotiate for both therapists and those who have suffered.

Generally speaking in society there is a theme of humiliation that goes with the act of oneís wife being sexually conquered by another. It could be that you had a very humiliating childhood and that you need to re-experience humiliating emotions in order to try to trigger a release of the pent up feelings from those earlier humiliations. Again choosing a sexual way to re-enact this suggests a possible sexual humiliation early in your own sexual development. Or it perhaps recreates a dynamic in your original family. Was your mother ever promiscuous or unfaithful to your father?

Finally Iíd be interested in your speculation about how you would actually feel if your wife did have sex with someone else. It may be your way of demonstrating a terribly low self of self-worth by testing your own privately held (unconscious) view that you are not worth being with. It could be that you are so convinced that she will leave you that youíd rather she got it over and done with. Sometimes it is easier to live with the event than the dread of the event. If this is the case then it indicates that this has already actually happened to you, either in a romantic or a family relationship, and that you have not resolved this event in the past. Usually we fear most not what might happen, but what has actually already happened and still has emotional baggage yet to be resolved.

If you react to any of this let me know. Try to refer to any significant relationships or events from your earlier life that might have a connection to these themes.

[Zephyer]

Thank you for answering my question ( a part of me feels very stupid even to ask).
I think you touch on a number of points. I had very low esteem as a child as I was always bottom of the class and in the end loss confidence so gave up trying, mixed with other kids from different schools and ended up getting into lots of trouble around the age 13/ 14. It was an all boys school and have one brother so never met any girls, consequently to shy to even ask them out. I ended up hating myself.

My first girl friend and first time I had sex was when I was around 21. A bit late really.
She met someone else and finished with me after about a year. She never really loved me and was just waiting to meet the right person.
This was the lowest point of my life and the next relationship wasn't until I was around 26. A few years later I met my wife, we have been together about 10 years. My confidence has improved a lot (not just through being with her). I now wonder why I was like the way I was.

When I was six the man that I thought was my father died, and then a year later my mother married my father. They didn't tell me he was my father until I was around 12 or 13. It was a shock at the time but he is such a good man I think that all worked out well. I don't think this is a part of the problem as I've always felt I've been in a loving home even though my mothers first marriage was a mess, they were very good at disguising it.

There does seem to be a part of me now that wants my wife to make me suffer and for her to feel passionate about someone else. At the same time I don't want her to leave me as that would be terrible. Apart from that we have children and my first responsibility should be to them.
If she did have a fling or a one night stand would that help?

[Benjamin Fry]

Iíve some bad news for you. Generally it is the considered view of mental health professionals that most of the damage done in a childís development happens between birth and about 5-6 years old. During this time you live with a man who you thought was your father but wasnít, lived with two people whose marriage ìwas a messî and then your ìfatherî died. Well, by any objective standard thatís a bad start and is inevitably going to lead to some complications as you grow up.

Your way of distancing yourself from the possible emotional impact of this is to say that you ìdonít think that this is part of the problemî and that they were good at ìdisguising itî. Actually I think that you have been good at disguising this from yourself and what you are disguising is the very fact of what a difficult problem it is.

Let me give you another example. I grew up in a very loving home. My mother died when I was 11 months old, but I accepted my fatherís decision that this had no effect on me because I couldnít remember it. In the end though the pressure of this denial showed up in subsequent emotional problems as an adult and I had to eventually accept that this was a denial mechanism perpetrated by all of us. Having gone through the hard experiences of waking up to that loss, my emotional system in the present is much more balanced.

Immediately after revealing your own family history, you state your obvious paradox. However your answer to it is the answer of an addict. You wonder if perhaps just one fling (one last drink, drug, affair, bet etc.) would be enough to rid you of this longing. The answer Iím afraid is that the compulsion gets stronger, not weaker, the more you act on it, because the action required to generate the emotional high and relief gets greater.

You are a human being and we are all relatively predictable. Therefore I can quite confidently suggest that you will have unresolved feelings from the chaotic events of your early life, the information that you later found out about this and the way that your mother (and father) have presented all of this to you.

You are likely to have some repressed negative feelings about your mother and her duplicity with you regarding who was and wasnít your father. These negative feelings may well be buried under the need to feel safe with at least one surviving parent. Thus you may only see the ìlovingî and not the other problems that she introduced into your early life.

The proof in the pudding is that there is an abnormal emotional consequence in your adult life. You recognise a desire to have your wife make you suffer and for her to have passionate feelings for someone else. Isnít this exactly what your mother did? But that you donít want to think about? Your mother (presumably) slept with your father when married to your step-father. This led to considerable suffering for you in the ensuing confusion of your own attachment and loss. Could it be that you want the chance to react to your wife's infidelity in a way that you were never able to about your own mother's? I suspect that this link is way to clear to be coincidental.

I strongly suspect that your desire to experience your wife sleeping with another man is actually a coded unconscious desire to get in touch with your very difficult feelings about your mother sleeping with someone who wasnít you ìfatherî as you would have know it at the time. Your own ensuing lack of clear identity and her lack of clarity with you would most likely have affected your confidence both socially in school and with women. You may have ended up hating yourself because you didnítí know who you were, or even why.

Iíd encourage you to try to get some counselling on these issues. I suspect that if you begin to contact these feelings directly then you will lose the intensity of the urge for your wife to sleep with someone else. This could have a tremendous benefit on your marriage, which you rightly seem to value very highly. If your first responsibility really is to your children, then trust me when I suggest that they would want you to get some help with these difficult emotional issues. That will stop them having an impact on your children later on.

Finally, no I donít think that a one night stand or fling would help. In fact I think it could be very damaging for all of you. But that might be hard for you to agree with since possibly you were actually yourself conceived in just that way.

[Zephyer]

Many thanks Benjamin, you've given me quite a bit to think about as I have never made that connection. As you say I should discuss this further with a counsellor.

[Benjamin Fry]

You are welcome and good luck. If you have any feelings about what has been suggested here and you would like to discuss them before you have an opportunity to see a counsellor please feel free to do so here.

[Zephyer]

Hello Benjamin
So much has happened. First of all I didn't mention that I've been out of the country for a year and have been going back home every other weekend. This will get easier as I've only got a couple more months of work abroad.
I didn't listen to your advice enough. Back in October a friend of ours has been very flirtatious with my wife and while I was away my wife rang me up and told me that he had asked her out to dinner. Which she did not accept but told me how flattering that was. A week later she phoned me up and asked me if she could have an affair in which I said she could. But a few days after that she started to be very cold towards me and I then realized what a terrible thing I had done.
I phoned her up and begged her not to have an affair. This whole issue of me wanting to watch my wife have sex with someone else is now the furthest thing from my mind. When I went back home for the weekend I noticed his mobile number listed on my wife's mobile and his mobile number written in a secret place in her diary. She denied anything had happened and he was ringing her about getting his wife a present for christmas. The next time I went home I noticed there was a condom missing from the draw next to the bed. I said to her I blame myself and please just tell me the truth but her excuse was that she used it on a vibrator as it has spermicidal stuff on it and so makes things easier, but I know she doesn't like using vibrators.
By now I was very worried and by the next weekend I came back home and went to check the mobile phone bill but it was missing. So I rang the services number and found his number had been dialed 27 times in november. I confronted my wife but not angrily, just saying tell me the truth. She said they were just texts and he's just a friend. She would never pick up the phone to talk to me in that month and when I rang her she was always to busy to talk.
So I rang this man's number and told him to leave my wife alone and that I knew he was round at my house last week. He said "I've got the wrong end of the stick. My wife is a beautiful woman and felt sorry for her being on her own". He didn't deny being at the house just went silent and said lets just leave it there.
I then went back to my wife and said "I just want you to end it" and she said "I have ended it".
But later on I guess she must have spoken to him again and she realized that he didn't give to much away. So then she continues to deny everything and starts blaming me and says she can't handle all this pressure I'm putting on her and starts talking about it might be better if we got divorced.
I said I wouldn't mention it anymore as I thought if I do it will just drive her away. She made me apologies to this man on the phone and I had to say that I have got it all wrong.( how degrading and humiliating is that).
Over christmas things have got a lot better. I've taken all the blame on to myself. I have tried to be a good husband, bought her lots of presents and made a big fuss over her, but I'm hyper sensitive.
I did see a councillor and he said I should not talk to her about it. Stop searching for evidence, dwell on the good things and he gave me some mind exercises to stop me thinking of this constantly.
I would find it hard to believe that she is continuing this affair as we have been getting on quite well. But what troubles me is, she says that this man is just a friend that she wants to keep. In fact she said he's a sweet man. He will always be around and the temptation will always be there.
I just don't think I can ever be happy again because I will always wonder, where has she gone out to, who is she on the phone to. Without her honesty I can never trust her again.
Also she has become very flirtatious with lots of men in our social scene and seems to have a new confidence. She is very beautiful and so gets lots of attention from other men.
I have become very jealous. She says "it's just harmless flirting and it's fun".
Finally I just don't know how to react when I meet this man face to face as he is part of the social scene. After what has happened I just don't know if I can hold it together.
Regards

[Zephyer]

Maybe there are a couple of other things you need to know.
I know you can't speculate on people who aren't in the forum but I think my wife has problems as well although she would never admit it. There is a brick wall around her emotions. She responds to me when I show her love but she is in control and always has to win. She is over sensitive and insensitive to my feelings and little dramas can seem like the end of the world. This is why I'm scared to talk to her as I have always shouldered the problems and tried to take any stress away from her. She gets cross over the slightest thing.
Her mother told me that when she was a baby she couldn't bond with her at all and was just left with a south african nanny. From the sounds of her childhood her parents just used to leave her play on her own and didn't have that much to do with her.
To give just a couple of examples of sometimes how she treats me.
1: We were at a concert and at the end my friend took me back stage to meet people for half an hour and I left her with her friend. Thoughtless of me, yes. But this was ten years ago and the other day she brought it up and said that she should have finished with me for doing that.
2: We were at a ball and she wanted to dance. I just wanted to finish a conversation and dance later with her. But a bit of time went by and a girl on our table asked me to dance , as I didn't know her I felt too embarrassed to say no. Again she said if we hadn't been married she would have finished with me. I know I was in the wrong and apologized but I think these two events are the worst things I have done to her in ten years of marriage. She never apologizes to me but on a few occasions when she knows she's treated me badly she has been quite nice to me afterwards. It's her way of making up without actually having to say sorry. I think getting her to talk is quite hard, she is a closed book.
Is there a connection with her needing lots of men to admire her.
Our relationship is always me giving her attention rarely the other way round.
Regards

[Benjamin Fry]

Well you have got what you wished for, but also what you most dreaded. How interesting is that? Broadly Iíd refer you to my previous answer. This new information really just confirms it.

This is a perfect example of what happens when our unconscious projections rub up against reality. You never wanted your wife to have an affair. You just wanted to recreate the feelings of betrayal by a woman that this would induce. You havenít resolved your feelings about your motherís affair (which resulted in your life) or her subsequent lack of openness about your true identity. Isnít it fascinating that you start this post by saying that your obsession has been active for six years, and also that your ìfatherî died when you were six? You are recreating an exact replica.

For the first six years of your life, you may have unconsciously wanted your mother to have an affair, because then she would be with your true father, not your pretend father. But of course you never wanted her to leave you. Now as an adult you have spent six years deeply convinced that you want your wife to have an affair, but also to never leave you. Now that she has, your life is up in the air, just like it was when your ìfatherî died. What will come next I wonder? Six years of lies about who is really who? It certainly seems to be going that way.

Presumably you can see that the problem is you and your childhood, not your wife. She has a different problem in that she was sufficiently damaged to marry you (I mean that in the nicest possible way). Obviously she has issues too, but I think youíll need to deal with yours before you can start to canvas hers.

On a practical note, I donít think that you can do much but eat humble pie in your marriage right now. Accept that your wife is your equal and you have treated her poorly. It is humiliating for a woman to be told to sleep with someone else. She has lived a humiliating existence for may years. Now that someone else has actually showed her affection and desire, she may be waking up from that humiliation and probably will want her revenge. Frankly youíll just have to let her have it, since you donít really have a moral leg to stand on. The best thing you can do is to invest heavily in connecting with and understanding your feelings from the past. This will relieve your wife of having to carry the burden of it.

She probably has been sexually active with another man. You are hardly ever there and always tell her you want her to sleep with someone else. It seems unlikely that she would hold back therefore if some comfort was offered to her. However she is also still with you. You have children and a life together. Focus on getting the help you need so that you can be a better husband to her. You will have to accept her choices and behaviour.

If you do run into her other man, then I suggest you would suffer less if you react gracefully. You could even thank him for taking care of your wifeís needs while you were physically and emotionally absent. If it helps you might accept that he has brought some happiness into her life and may be the catalyst for a fresh start in your relationship.

The key is to get the really out of control stuff back into the past and your relationship with your mother, and by doing so you will lessen the emotional intensity of the issues which currently are running amok among your own peer group.

[Zephyer]

Many thanks for your reply Benjamin. It was quite brutal to read but maybe that's what I needed to stop any temptation of having a go at her. I have shouldered the blame for this and I have been nice to her. I feel I have been through so much pain I know I would never want her to have an affair. How much more revenge will she take out on me? How much more suffering can I go through.
When I saw my therapist he didn't really say too much about my obsession with watching her but I have another appointment with him so maybe I should talk about that side of my past more. Is there anything I should say or do for my wife to help. I have been sending her romantic notes and flowers and she responds well to this. You said I have to connect more with the past, I don't really know how to do this. Things are what they are, I can't change that but I can act differently to my wife.
I don't understand you saying that my wife is sufficiently damaged to marry me. The thoughts of her having an affair came years after we got married.
I should also say that my desire to watch her have sex with someone was for the first few years just a bit of a fetish. It only got really intense when I went away. The fact that I'll be moving back home soon I would think should help. I have worked out that we will only have another 25 nights apart.

[Zephyer]

I just want to add a couple more points as I don't totally agree with your reply. You say that for the first six years of my life I unconsciously wanted my mother to have an affair. 1 How can a baby want that? and 2, when I was a bit older my mothers first husband was a very good father to me, so I know that's not what I would have wanted.
I also want to say that in many respects I'm a good loving husband. You can't make a sweeping judgment about our marriage on such a tiny bit of information. Your not there to see how we are and to say that if she treats me really badly from now on I should just put up with it without questioning seems not a good way for a marriage to proceed.
I did beg her not to have an affair and at that point she still hadn't had one, but I guess in her mind she already decided she was going to.
It has been extremely difficult and lonely working abroad on my own all day and night away from my family and friends, as I just work on my own. It's like solitary confinement. My wife still has friends and the children around her and I employ a helper three days a week to make her life easier. I could do with a little help and support as well. I'm not a robot.

[Zephyer]

Sorry, couple more points.
1, I shouldn't thank the man that had an affair with my wife. He is a married man and has the reputation of going from one married woman to another trying it on. He homed in on my wife's vulnerable side as I've been away but this is not behavior to applaud!
2. How can you say that my wife was sufficiently damaged to marry me. What does that mean!
When we first met she had split from a previous boyfriend and had a first child that I took on and treated like my own putting her through the best schools. I even ended up having to deal with the father so I took stress away from my wife. I give my wife lots of attention, love, affection and a very good life style. I have shouldered these problems that have arisen. but to hear your reply you seem to make out I'm all bad. The decision for me to work away from home for one year was very much a joint decision so it's not fair to totally blame me and say "your hardly ever there so no wonder why she did" if that's so does that give me the right to have an affair.
I don't think your getting the full picture but I guess that's the problem with E mail

[Zephyer]

I just want to comment again on the line you wrote "my wife was sufficiently damaged to marry someone like me". Does this mean that my wife's biggest flaw was to make the mistake of marrying a hopeless looser like myself. I'm already at rock bottom how much lower do you want to send me. And all this coming from an expert like yourself helps to re enforce this.
You have hit on something, making the connection with my childhood, but as I say my fetish was a mild thing mentioning it once every few months or a year may go past with out me saying anything, until I went away. The place I've gone to is the place where I was born and grew up. It is also the place where my mother lives. Add to that I spend 98% of my time alone I' have become very introspective. My wife doesn't like talking on the phone either. And all this what for. So I can give my family financial security. If my wife could give me support and love this would have helped but our marriage is based on me supporting her emotionally, it can't work the other way round. No wonder I'm in a depression.

[Zephyer]

The more I think about that comment "my wife was sufficiently damaged to marry someone like me".the more I know you are just so wrong. When we started dating we were both very much in love and there was no reason for us not to get married. You weren't there, you just don't know.

And as for your advice about thanking him, well I'm sorry call me old fashioned but this man is a friend of mine. I have found out that he goes up to every married woman and does the same thing. He is an absolute master in flattery† and suduction .He tells them how beautifull they are and wants to take them out for dinner. Of course women after ten, fifteen years of marriage love this attention. I know a friend of mine who is head over heals with this man. . He's homed in on my wifes vunerable side while I've been away. I hate that, I would never ever do that. Why doesn't he go and use a prostitute.†
AND ALSO . I was not emotionally absent. A number of times in Sept and October I told my wife I loved her. I bought her two presents. Some really expensive Prada gloves and clothes. And then there's her new car she wanted, I got that for her in October.
I told a very good friend of mine what you said here's his reply. He insisted I email this to you.

Totally and utterly ignore such patent crap. Anyone who makes a diagnosis
like this from written correspondence and without meeting the person is
behaving irresponsibly and totally unethically. It seems clear to me that
the therapist is stirring things up to secure his own position and to ensure
you continue to rely on him. It is utterly disgraceful and you should stop
listening to anything he has to say before he does you damage. I REALLY mean
this - you should find someone decent rather than allow this git to
influence you.

By reading some of the other letters on the forum I gather you have undergone a lot of problems.
I sense an ego that you have. Listen to me the great enlightened one.
I also know you are not qualified but talking out of your own experience. You may understand a little about how people tick but your advice on how to deal with it is misplaced.
I suggest you stop this forum before you really do somebody some damage, but of course that won't help the book sales will it

[Benjamin Fry]

There are two levels here. I would describe them as projection and reality. Alternatively you might look at them as the superficial situation and the more deeply understood one. The two are mixed up together right now. Your task is to separate them. This is harder than it sounds because they are mixed up for a good reason. You need to feel these feelings of betrayal and anger. These were the feelings that you repressed in your childhood. These feelings are frozen inside you and want to come out. They need a trigger and unconsciously you have arranged for one.

The superficial situation is quite bland. You repeatedly asked your wife to have an affair. She eventually did. You are miserable. No-one could look at that and have a great deal of sympathy with you (other than becasue you are suffering). That is why you need to take a stoical position when it comes to how you behave with her and others. They mostly wonít see the inner picture and therefore your best bet is to try to just deal with this situation as a damage limitation. You have made a mistake. Now you will make it better, not worse. That makes sense (I hope) but it is hard to do because of your emotional storm within.

This emotional storm is the deeper picture. You have suffered terrible loss, confusion and betrayal of confidence as a child. What you went through is very hard to cope with emotionally. It sounds like you didnít deal with it then and donít really want to think about it now. This is exactly why your strong emotions are locating themselves in the here and now and not connecting to the events of the past. Your emotional turmoil has its origin in your past. But the past remains in the present. Those strong feelings are frozen inside you. To get healthy they need to come out. When they do, you misunderstand their origin. Thatís basically the reason for mostly all disagreements in life.

You make things even clearer when you say ìIíve gone to a place where I was born and grew upî. Do you see the significance of that? This is true physically. This is true emotionally. And this is now true metaphorically. You have returned to betrayal and despair. You are using the drama of your present to re-enact your past. It would be much better to bring the past back to life using a therapeutic process. Then your marriage would carry less of the burden.

To address some of your points raised:

- treating your wife like you love and cherish her is a great idea. I suspect that it is more important what you show her with your actions rather than what you say, but a heartfelt apology is often something others are grateful for.
- You can connect more with your past by talking about it and unearthing those parts of it that remain stuck in your nervous system
- We are all damaged to some extent. We tend to find life partners with complementary levels of damage. Sometimes this helps us to find mutual healing. Sometimes it destroys the relationship. Mostly it does a bit of both. Iím acknowledging that your past was very painful. Therefore it is likely that your wife also has some similar or contrasting issues. That was all that I meant about her also being damaged. It means that you are well matched and really I did mean it in the nicest possible way. Clearly I explained this poorly and I apologise.
- My speculation that you unconsciously wanted your mother to have an affair is just speculation. By definition what is un-conscious is outside of our awareness. It is possible that we all know many things at many stages of our life that make no logical sense, but that are unconsciously understood. If so then we would not be conscious of it. This unconscious mental activity is a cornerstone of the psychological professions. No-one really knows for sure how far it extends. I could be wrong.
- You are right that I donít have the full picture. I was commenting on the very narrow issue that you began this thread with.
- When I said that you are ìhardly ever thereî, I meant it as a statement of fact and not a negative judgement on you.

Iíd like to acknowledge that you are not a robot. You describe your married life as if sometimes that is what you are trying to be. However robots donít have feelings and you do. It is these feelings that you need to get in touch with, amplify and understand. This will stop them from attaching themselves to ideas in the (relatively benign) present and anchor them in resolving a (very traumatic) past. You sound as if you have been very lonely. This is often also the result of repressing our feelings. We have no-one to share our reality with.

Your anger is a good start. It is a great route out of depression. I suspect that you feel betrayed by me also. Again thereís nothing wrong with this. These are the feelings that I suspect that you need to release.

And remember, I'm no expert on you. I could be wrong about anything. Feel free to take what is useful and leave the rest as my mistake or problem.